Reader comments
George F. Will: Utah voucher war shows progressives need new label
66 comments | Read story
Brian Maxwell | 3:16 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Every Utahn should read Mr. Will's commentary before they vote. Once
again, he hits the nail on the head.
Tim | 5:52 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Based on his numbers and 'facts', it's obvious that this
guy's only heard one side of the argument...
Go ahead. Count the number of wrong facts he stated.
Go ahead. Count the number of wrong facts he stated.
Comments continue below
Joe | 6:51 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
I love George Will, one of the great intellectuals of our age. This column is
right on. And this is not someone that can be easily pushed aside using the
fear-based arguments of voucher opponents such as wanting to teach religion to
our students or getting a perk for the wealthy. He has no vested interest.
Unlike the NEA/UEA on the one side or Parents for Choice on the other, he is an
independent observer with no special interest in the outcome.
Roger | 6:54 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Three comments:
First, the supply and demand of private school education in Utah is already in perfect balance. Anybody who wants to purchase a private education is free to do so. It�s not the government�s fault if somebody can�t afford it. If Will were consistent, he�d argue that the government should give everybody a Mercedes voucher to enable the demand of Mercedes to match the supply.
Second, he overstates the cost savings to schools. The public schools would in fact save the MARGINAL COST of educating each student who goes to a private school BECAUSE OF the voucher. What the marginal cost is depends upon the budgeting horizon. Will says that the state will save $5,500 per student, plus millions in school construction expenses. That is just false; the $5,500 already includes the savings associated with construction expenses.
Third, he misrepresents voucher opponents. Few teachers are scared of competition and fewer care about how much money the union rakes. Generally, voucher opponents believe in the social value of education. Would it really be good for our country for parents to choose to send their kids to either a blue school, a red school, or a Muslim school?
First, the supply and demand of private school education in Utah is already in perfect balance. Anybody who wants to purchase a private education is free to do so. It�s not the government�s fault if somebody can�t afford it. If Will were consistent, he�d argue that the government should give everybody a Mercedes voucher to enable the demand of Mercedes to match the supply.
Second, he overstates the cost savings to schools. The public schools would in fact save the MARGINAL COST of educating each student who goes to a private school BECAUSE OF the voucher. What the marginal cost is depends upon the budgeting horizon. Will says that the state will save $5,500 per student, plus millions in school construction expenses. That is just false; the $5,500 already includes the savings associated with construction expenses.
Third, he misrepresents voucher opponents. Few teachers are scared of competition and fewer care about how much money the union rakes. Generally, voucher opponents believe in the social value of education. Would it really be good for our country for parents to choose to send their kids to either a blue school, a red school, or a Muslim school?
Joe Thompson | 6:55 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
A good frame of reference for this issue is the speech given by BYU President
Jeffrey R. Holland entitled Values and Education at the National Press Club in
June 1984, and printed in August 1984 BYU TODAY. Some of his comments were:
"As a nation we have lost sight of the basic purposes of schooling, but so, it seems to me have far too many of our educators. Too many in our profession have forgotten what Socrates said..."For the argument," he said to his students, "is not about just any question but about the way one should live," Losing the significant sense of that notion is what has put our nation at risk. It is the greater crisis in American education, for the "rising tide of mediocrity" is in morality and manners far more than in mathamatics and manufacturing."
"..schools..have to be the keeper of..group memory, remembering ..values which have marked the teaching of the liberal arts for nearly 2500 years."
"We've thrown accusations and insults and statistics and we have alway wanted to throw money at this problem. What we really need to throw at it is ourselves."
Which way are we going. You decide.
"As a nation we have lost sight of the basic purposes of schooling, but so, it seems to me have far too many of our educators. Too many in our profession have forgotten what Socrates said..."For the argument," he said to his students, "is not about just any question but about the way one should live," Losing the significant sense of that notion is what has put our nation at risk. It is the greater crisis in American education, for the "rising tide of mediocrity" is in morality and manners far more than in mathamatics and manufacturing."
"..schools..have to be the keeper of..group memory, remembering ..values which have marked the teaching of the liberal arts for nearly 2500 years."
"We've thrown accusations and insults and statistics and we have alway wanted to throw money at this problem. What we really need to throw at it is ourselves."
Which way are we going. You decide.
Get real | 7:12 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
This is nothing more than baseless, factless neo-con spew. It's hate-speech
masquerading as deep thought. Why does the DNews waste ink publishing this
drivel?
To suggest that diverting precious taxpayer resources to private schools will help public education is laughable.
To suggest that diverting precious taxpayer resources to private schools will help public education is laughable.
TRK | 7:21 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Good job George. Hits the nail right on the head. I'm sorry to say that a
"no voucher" outcome will be viewed by powers in education as a
"stay the course" vote and it will be even harder to make the
improvements in education that are needed to compete in a global market.
JML | 7:42 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
AMEN!
Al R | 7:42 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Mr. Will has hit it on the head! Well put.
Chris | 7:56 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Um...Zero?
George Will | 8:07 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Did anyone seriously believe he _wouldn't_ opine this way?
Mr. Will can always be counted on to toady to the effete country-club conservatives.
Mr. Will can always be counted on to toady to the effete country-club conservatives.
Pro and con extremes | 8:22 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
I work in Granite School District, so you may assume what my bias is. Even so, I
am put off by the advertising and editorials of both sides of Utah's
voucher issue. Mr. Will's column is an obvious example.
To wit:
"...teachers unions, whose idea of progress is preservation of the status quo..." Come on, George. When was the last time you attended one of the dozens of professional development courses teachers attend each year. Have you counted the additional course requirements for graduation added in Utah during the past decade. I think not.
"...vouchers are funded by general revenues, not the two sources of public school funds..." Red hearing. There is no wall between the general fund and public education funding. When the legislature allocates state surpluses to transportation, higher ed, or public education, where do you think it comes from? Note: It is also wrong for anti-voucher folk to say the money was "taken" from public education. The truth is, the millions in general fund dollars that could be spent on vouchers, should be spent on raising Utah public education off the bottom of the nation's funding per student effort.
Cont. on "Pro Con Extremes-2
To wit:
"...teachers unions, whose idea of progress is preservation of the status quo..." Come on, George. When was the last time you attended one of the dozens of professional development courses teachers attend each year. Have you counted the additional course requirements for graduation added in Utah during the past decade. I think not.
"...vouchers are funded by general revenues, not the two sources of public school funds..." Red hearing. There is no wall between the general fund and public education funding. When the legislature allocates state surpluses to transportation, higher ed, or public education, where do you think it comes from? Note: It is also wrong for anti-voucher folk to say the money was "taken" from public education. The truth is, the millions in general fund dollars that could be spent on vouchers, should be spent on raising Utah public education off the bottom of the nation's funding per student effort.
Cont. on "Pro Con Extremes-2
jake | 8:26 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Roger,
Thanks for hitting the nail on the head regarding marginal costs (as well as your other anti-voucher points). Unfortunately the general population does not understand that important point and some are influenced by simple illustrations using oreo cookies. Question for pro-voucher folks: If you take only one child out of your local public school how much does public education "save". Answer:pretty close to $0 because most costs (buildings, teachers, janitors, heat, electricity, etc.) stay the same. So the vouchers helping public schools have more money arguement is bogus.
Thanks for hitting the nail on the head regarding marginal costs (as well as your other anti-voucher points). Unfortunately the general population does not understand that important point and some are influenced by simple illustrations using oreo cookies. Question for pro-voucher folks: If you take only one child out of your local public school how much does public education "save". Answer:pretty close to $0 because most costs (buildings, teachers, janitors, heat, electricity, etc.) stay the same. So the vouchers helping public schools have more money arguement is bogus.
sdarwinj | 8:33 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
As a retired teacher (34 years) from California, I can truthfully say that
teacher organizations have changed what I once considered a
"profession" to a union with all its attendant negatives. The unions
have lowered the quality of teachers. It is next to impossible to get rid of a
"bad" teacher because of the unions. Unions generally do not support
"merit pay" to encourage better teachers to receive the pay they
really deserve. Why would a person like me vote for vouchers? Its because of
the teacher unions.
Andino | 8:37 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Well said. It's too bad so many locals fall for the fear tactics of the
leftists, who are "dumbing down" our children.
Richard Sherlock | 8:45 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Will is dead right. The money for vouchers is not government's its the
people's. Let them spend it the way they want for education. We do not
have government grocery stores, though food is a necessity, why should we have
gov. schools as the only option
dcc | 8:47 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
I've already written George a letter. If he wants to change labels on
liberals he should be called a tax-and-spend,
the-government-should-take-care-of-everyone Democrat.
Pro Con Extremes-2 | 8:46 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
"Utah spends more than $7,500 per public school pupil ..." That figure
includes property tax, 80 percent of which must be spent on buildings. The U.S.
Census Bureau reports that in 2004 Utah spent $5,008 per student, 51st in the
nation.
"...And because the vouchers are paid from general revenues, the departed pupil's $7,500 stays in the public school system." Mr. Wills is doing some creating public finance math here. If the student leaves a school, the amount allocated to the school leaves with him/her. While the legislature did create a "hold harmless" provision (which expires in five years), there is not indication how much money that would provide per student, state wide.
Referring to Utah's forecast of additional students in the next decade, Mr. Wills says: "By empowering parents to choose private alternatives, the voucher program will save Utah taxpayers millions of dollars in school construction expenses." Mr. Wills needs to return to school for a sex education course. As I recall, it takes two adults to create a child. Adults have jobs and pay taxes.
Cont. "Pro Con Extremes-3"
"...And because the vouchers are paid from general revenues, the departed pupil's $7,500 stays in the public school system." Mr. Wills is doing some creating public finance math here. If the student leaves a school, the amount allocated to the school leaves with him/her. While the legislature did create a "hold harmless" provision (which expires in five years), there is not indication how much money that would provide per student, state wide.
Referring to Utah's forecast of additional students in the next decade, Mr. Wills says: "By empowering parents to choose private alternatives, the voucher program will save Utah taxpayers millions of dollars in school construction expenses." Mr. Wills needs to return to school for a sex education course. As I recall, it takes two adults to create a child. Adults have jobs and pay taxes.
Cont. "Pro Con Extremes-3"
Pro Con Extremes-3 | 8:48 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
"Utah's Office of Education reports that the state's private
schools � which are operating one-third below full
enrollment � have a higher percentage of nonwhites than do
public schools." Sorry, George. You have this one backward. Granite School
District is neartly 30 percent non-white; Salt Lake City School District is more
than 50 percent non-white. What's the percent of non-whites in private
schools? No one knows exactly becasue they don't report their numbers to
the state.
"The Wall Street Journal reports that the NEA has approved expenditures of up to $3 million." Mr. Wills did not report the $3.8 million (some say more) that was spent by the pro-voucher campaign.
It does no one credibility to purport evidence that itself is incredible.
"The Wall Street Journal reports that the NEA has approved expenditures of up to $3 million." Mr. Wills did not report the $3.8 million (some say more) that was spent by the pro-voucher campaign.
It does no one credibility to purport evidence that itself is incredible.
Too bad | 8:55 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
I don't think Mr. Will has read the bill. I might be inclined to support
the law that he described, but he didn't accurately describe Utah's
proposed law.
DMC | 8:55 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Excellent! Thank you, George, for presenting the facts! I hope everyone reads
his comments! I am sick of the flyers in my mailbox everyday with the same
outright lies on them. The UEA just wants the money. They think we are stupid
enought to believe their lies, even when they are thrown at us everyday! They
don't care about our kids or our right to choose the education we want for
our kids. Vouchers provide a way for the lower income families to choose the
best education for their kids! America is about freedom to choose; freedom of
speech, freedom of religion, and should be about freedom to choose in education!
Thank you, George!
DCF | 8:54 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
When this is over I am going to push my legislator to run a law. A mandate. This
law will mandate that every future teacher MUST complete a course in basic
economics prior to graduation and certification. No course in economics with at
least a C, no teaching degree. Maybe even require the course to come from the
Austrian school.
I am amazed at the complete ignorance of the financial and business world around them, coming from our teachers.
And for those who state that they have no idea how competition will help the regular schools...have you missed the entire 20th century?!
Maybe we should throw in there a course on business. And to think that we have so many teachers who only know structured economics - and are not even aware of it - teaching our kids this crud. News flash, the cold war is over the structured economics lost. Even the Chinese are getting on board. And yet right here in America, one size fits all, sanctioned monopolies.
AMAZING!
I am amazed at the complete ignorance of the financial and business world around them, coming from our teachers.
And for those who state that they have no idea how competition will help the regular schools...have you missed the entire 20th century?!
Maybe we should throw in there a course on business. And to think that we have so many teachers who only know structured economics - and are not even aware of it - teaching our kids this crud. News flash, the cold war is over the structured economics lost. Even the Chinese are getting on board. And yet right here in America, one size fits all, sanctioned monopolies.
AMAZING!
Dan | 9:20 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
That sure is alot of nail hitting.Thats okay-Vouchers go down on Tuesday
Doug | 9:31 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Hooray for thinkers such as Roger and Jake. Those are the issues I think
about--not the slanted rhetoric of George Will or "Parents for Choice"
(like we don't like the idea of choices?). The real substance of this
decision is stated in those comments.
Same old game | 9:33 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
This is just one more proof of the powers that be playing the old
"divide-and-conquer" game on those outside of the loop.
Keep them busy arguing amongst themselves about the most ridiculous of things, ie., who is better, smarter, more moral, etc.? Good ol' god-fearing, righteous Conservatives (aka Republicans) or the godless, anything goes, tax-and-spend liberals, (aka Democrats), while the boys in high places reap he rewards.
What utter nonsense!
Keep them busy arguing amongst themselves about the most ridiculous of things, ie., who is better, smarter, more moral, etc.? Good ol' god-fearing, righteous Conservatives (aka Republicans) or the godless, anything goes, tax-and-spend liberals, (aka Democrats), while the boys in high places reap he rewards.
What utter nonsense!
Mike | 9:39 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Get Real says that George Will's column is "hate speech". What a
load of horse stuff that falls on the ground from the rear quarter. Hate
speech?
Get Real's response to this column is hate speech. Will's column is hate speeh only to those who don't use much of their brain.
Get Real must be one of those so called "progressives" (liberals) that Will is talking about. Someone who thinks with their mouth and not their brain.
Whether you are for vouchers or not, one thing is clear. This type of rehtoric is insane, stupid, and shows the lack of brains that folks like Get Real have. Cut through the crap and look at the facts.
KSL's reporter Rich Piatt had an excellent report the other day on this very issue. He examined the rehtoric from both sides and came to some very interesting conclusions.
By the way, for the record, I am for vouchers. I won't use them for my children, but I am for them. And I have used my brain to look at both sides of the issue. If I wasn't for vouchers before, Get Real's rant would have pushed me over to the pro- voucher side.
Get Real's response to this column is hate speech. Will's column is hate speeh only to those who don't use much of their brain.
Get Real must be one of those so called "progressives" (liberals) that Will is talking about. Someone who thinks with their mouth and not their brain.
Whether you are for vouchers or not, one thing is clear. This type of rehtoric is insane, stupid, and shows the lack of brains that folks like Get Real have. Cut through the crap and look at the facts.
KSL's reporter Rich Piatt had an excellent report the other day on this very issue. He examined the rehtoric from both sides and came to some very interesting conclusions.
By the way, for the record, I am for vouchers. I won't use them for my children, but I am for them. And I have used my brain to look at both sides of the issue. If I wasn't for vouchers before, Get Real's rant would have pushed me over to the pro- voucher side.
Mahershalalhashbaz | 9:44 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Excellent.
Crazy people | 9:54 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
I've always been suspicious of any group of people who demonize those who
wish to help our society with the negative label, "do-gooders."
I never thought I would ever see the day when this would happen.
I never thought I would ever see the day when this would happen.
No facts | 9:55 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
The last time George Will started with the facts before piling on the rhetoric
was.... well, I'm only in my 40s. Perhaps I'm too young.
It amazes me that people equate "Telling the Truth" with "Saying What I Already Believe."
It amazes me that people equate "Telling the Truth" with "Saying What I Already Believe."
Trib likes him, too | 10:09 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Tribune readers have weighed in on George in some hilarious ways. Read them
under Because You Asked on the Trib forum page.
Attn: DMC | 10:19 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
The fact is that a lot of the people whom the UEA taught ARE stupid enough to
believe their lies.
. . .or, at least, UNEDUCATED enough!
. . .or, at least, UNEDUCATED enough!
Doug Petersen | 10:28 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Teachers' unions constitute the most selfish organized bodies imaginable.
If these unions are truly concerned first and foremost for students, they would
dismantle. They service their own interests by refusing to release poor-quality
teachers. What is it about the retention of poor-quality teachers that is in
students' best interests?
Shame on all the poor-quality teachers in teachers unions. Please help our children; help them by realizing that you are poor-quality teachers and quitting.
The day I need a union to preserve my job against the reality that I'm no longer effective and useful (that I'm actually a disservice) will be a pathetic day for me indeed. It's a day I don't plan on - because I'm not that selfish.
Vouchers all the way.
Shame on all the poor-quality teachers in teachers unions. Please help our children; help them by realizing that you are poor-quality teachers and quitting.
The day I need a union to preserve my job against the reality that I'm no longer effective and useful (that I'm actually a disservice) will be a pathetic day for me indeed. It's a day I don't plan on - because I'm not that selfish.
Vouchers all the way.
By the numbers | 11:06 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
If you don't think Utah is getting bang for its buck, read this:
(Sources: National Center of rEducation Statistics, U.S. Census)
Administrative cost per student
U.S. - $160
Utah - $53
Percent of budget spent on instruction
U.S. - 61.1%
Utah - 64.2%
Student/Teacher ratios
U.S. - 16.4
Utah - 22.9
(The ratio of student to teacher in the classroom may increase dramatically in the U.S. and Utah because of teacher prep periods, small AP class sizes, etc.)
ACT Average Scores
U.S. - 21.1
Utah - 21.7
AP tests passed
U.S. - 59.6%
Utah - 65.5%
(Sources: National Center of rEducation Statistics, U.S. Census)
Administrative cost per student
U.S. - $160
Utah - $53
Percent of budget spent on instruction
U.S. - 61.1%
Utah - 64.2%
Student/Teacher ratios
U.S. - 16.4
Utah - 22.9
(The ratio of student to teacher in the classroom may increase dramatically in the U.S. and Utah because of teacher prep periods, small AP class sizes, etc.)
ACT Average Scores
U.S. - 21.1
Utah - 21.7
AP tests passed
U.S. - 59.6%
Utah - 65.5%
Joe Moe | 11:08 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
It's amazing how much staying power this issue has. I think that is a good
thing: people are thinking and talking more about education.
This voucher system will be defeated on Tuesday, (thankfully), but rest assured, our legislature will take another stab at it next year (thankfully), and maybe they'll get it right this time.
Create real accountability for private schools, on a par with what is being demanded more and more in public schools, and then vouchers might be acceptable!
This voucher system will be defeated on Tuesday, (thankfully), but rest assured, our legislature will take another stab at it next year (thankfully), and maybe they'll get it right this time.
Create real accountability for private schools, on a par with what is being demanded more and more in public schools, and then vouchers might be acceptable!
bob | 11:14 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Vouchers are a handout to the rich and a joke played on us by people who have
vested interests in private schools. Its your choice to send your kids to
private schools and you should pay for that choice. I have no children in school
and as such under your reasoning I should get my money back or at least be able
to divert it to something that benefits me personally. I am proud that most
folks in Utah dont buy the voucher lies and will vote it down soundly on Nov 6.
Hopefully after that people will get involved in their kids education to make
the public schools better instead of winning about the teachers.
Manny | 11:17 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
How can the media perpetuate so many incorrect facts?
For example--
- Average public school cost per student in Utah: $4,995 according to US Census Bureau (NOT $7,500).
- Average tuition cost in Utah private schools: $7,600-8,000 according to studies by both USU and Deseret News (NOT $4,000).
For example--
- Average public school cost per student in Utah: $4,995 according to US Census Bureau (NOT $7,500).
- Average tuition cost in Utah private schools: $7,600-8,000 according to studies by both USU and Deseret News (NOT $4,000).
Anonymous | 11:22 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Mike above is proof as to how effective the divide-and-conquer game works on
some individuals.
When people like Wills can make a point without using the word "liberal" then I might actually entertain their point of view.
Until then it's part of the divide and conquer nonsense that works best on frightened people.
When people like Wills can make a point without using the word "liberal" then I might actually entertain their point of view.
Until then it's part of the divide and conquer nonsense that works best on frightened people.
Change is Good | 11:47 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Competition is good. Change is good. Unions are bad. Numbers aside,
maintaining the status quo is never a good choice for anything. While change
may be painful, getting the competition out there will help our stagnant
schools. Public schools in Utah have something to fear--themselves. This issue
just brings it out in the light.
The Fear Uncertainty and Doubt published on TV by the teachers union is just amazing in its propaganda quotient.
The Fear Uncertainty and Doubt published on TV by the teachers union is just amazing in its propaganda quotient.
Vote Yes | 11:58 a.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Great job George! You are 100% correct. The teacher's unions are
destroying public education and the Voucher bill will put them in their
place.
Vote Yes on Tuesday!!!
Vote Yes on Tuesday!!!
Vote Yes | 12:09 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
George thanks for giving the facts. The teacher's unions (UEA and NEA) and
PTA want to distort all of the facts. They are afraid of competition. I
learned long ago that as a family we would not participate in the PTA in our
school. I give the public school money directly to them each year. I do not go
thru the PTA. I have a great public school and vouchers will only make it
better.
Vote YES...
Vote YES...
Wilkey | 12:13 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
"If you don't think Utah is getting bang for its buck, read this: blah
blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah." - By the Numbers
Great! Utah students were a full 0.6 points above the nation on the ACT. Break out the bubbly!
I don't dispute your data - I dispute the cause.
It's very well known that most of the important factors determining educational success are things that go on in the home: One parent or two? Are there books in the home? DO parents read those books to their kids, and encourage them to read? How many hours is the TV on?
The biggest determinant of educational success is demographics like these. That's why Utah does so much better than DC, which spends twice as much per student as we do.
The real question is: given basically fixed public resources (like taxes), how best do we deploy those resources to do as well as possible? And can we do better? Vouchers are a good start.
Great! Utah students were a full 0.6 points above the nation on the ACT. Break out the bubbly!
I don't dispute your data - I dispute the cause.
It's very well known that most of the important factors determining educational success are things that go on in the home: One parent or two? Are there books in the home? DO parents read those books to their kids, and encourage them to read? How many hours is the TV on?
The biggest determinant of educational success is demographics like these. That's why Utah does so much better than DC, which spends twice as much per student as we do.
The real question is: given basically fixed public resources (like taxes), how best do we deploy those resources to do as well as possible? And can we do better? Vouchers are a good start.
wrz | 12:43 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Over half of Utah's private schools are run by religions. Before a single
voucher is issued, someone should decide if use of tax money to support
religious schools violates the 1st Amendment to the US Constitutional. I think
it does.
Sam | 12:52 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Manny,
How can you perpetuate so many incorrect facts?
For example:
- Average public school cost per student amy have been $4995 at the time of the last census, but the state will in fact spend about $7500 next year on education per student.
- Average tuition cost in Utah private schools is indeed araound $8000 due to the inclusion of some very expensive boarding schools in the statistics. But the median cost is in fact $4000-5000 and I have verified this is correct with many of the private schools in the Layton area.
You are interestingly selective with your facts.
How can you perpetuate so many incorrect facts?
For example:
- Average public school cost per student amy have been $4995 at the time of the last census, but the state will in fact spend about $7500 next year on education per student.
- Average tuition cost in Utah private schools is indeed araound $8000 due to the inclusion of some very expensive boarding schools in the statistics. But the median cost is in fact $4000-5000 and I have verified this is correct with many of the private schools in the Layton area.
You are interestingly selective with your facts.
Former Utah Teacher | 12:55 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Actually, Mr. Will--if you look at history what you'll see is what REALLY
affected the desegregation of school was the RICH white fleeing the urban areas
for suburbs--thus CREATING the NEED for busing. Or, in other words--CREATING the
SUPPOSED NEED for VOUCHERS!!!!!!!!!! What Vouchers will REALLY do in Utah , as
it has in other states, IS CREATE A CASTE SYSTEM of rich and poor, of white and
non-white, of abled and disabled. Vouchers REINFORCE the status quo far more
than public schools do--the status quo of bigotry, prejudice, and non-democratic
ideals!!!! Just as the fully privatized HEALTH CARE system provides really good
care only to the RICH--same will occur in a privatized school system. I'm
not for a fully public system in either area--but do fully recognize that just
as people in the UK are pulling their own teeth because of their broken health
care system, public vouchers to fund private schools will ONLY create increases
in illiterate, uneducated masses ruled by a very few well educated
minority!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Manny | 1:09 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Sam, please find me a report anywhere, other than the biased, incorrect one done
by the Utah Taxpayers Assn., that says Utah spends more than $6,000 per student.
I dare you.
Also, why do you selectively exclude more expensive private schools? Don't you understand public schools educate severely handicapped students that are VERY expensive? They also have AP and other special programs that are more expensive to operate. They also provide free transportation for everyone and free lunch for those who can't afford it. All those costs are figured in the public school average, but not the private school average.
Hmm, who's being selective with facts?
Also, why do you selectively exclude more expensive private schools? Don't you understand public schools educate severely handicapped students that are VERY expensive? They also have AP and other special programs that are more expensive to operate. They also provide free transportation for everyone and free lunch for those who can't afford it. All those costs are figured in the public school average, but not the private school average.
Hmm, who's being selective with facts?
Sam | 1:09 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Former Utah Teacher,
You provide no basis for your conclusions whatsoever. Since 1)Private schools are currently more segregated than the public schools and 2)Vouchers will help the non-rich (since the rich can already afford private schools), it is therefore more likely that vouchers will DECREASE the caste system of rich and poor.
You provide no basis for your conclusions whatsoever. Since 1)Private schools are currently more segregated than the public schools and 2)Vouchers will help the non-rich (since the rich can already afford private schools), it is therefore more likely that vouchers will DECREASE the caste system of rich and poor.
Wilkey | 1:25 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
"Actually, Mr. Will--if you look at history what you'll see is what
REALLY affected the desegregation of school was the RICH white fleeing the urban
areas for suburbs--thus CREATING the NEED for busing" - Former Utah
Teacher
Creating the "need?" Why was it needed? "Rich" whites fled for the burbs AFTER bussing, and they did so because by moving across city/county lines they moved into districts not affected by it.
"What Vouchers will REALLY do in Utah , as it has in other states, IS CREATE A CASTE SYSTEM of rich and poor, of white and non-white, of abled and disabled." - FUT
Vouchers mostly don't exist in other states. As Will pointed out, this would be the largest voucher program in the country. And private schools are less segregated than the public schools.
Former Utah Teacher, I am glad indeed you are a former teacher. I don't want my kids me taught your kind of bizarre logic.
Creating the "need?" Why was it needed? "Rich" whites fled for the burbs AFTER bussing, and they did so because by moving across city/county lines they moved into districts not affected by it.
"What Vouchers will REALLY do in Utah , as it has in other states, IS CREATE A CASTE SYSTEM of rich and poor, of white and non-white, of abled and disabled." - FUT
Vouchers mostly don't exist in other states. As Will pointed out, this would be the largest voucher program in the country. And private schools are less segregated than the public schools.
Former Utah Teacher, I am glad indeed you are a former teacher. I don't want my kids me taught your kind of bizarre logic.
Attn: Manny | 1:25 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
That "$4,995 per student" is the total amount spent on public
education, divided by the number of school-age children in Utah (5 - 19 years of
age).
The $7,500 per student is the school money divided by actual public school enrollment.
Thousands of school-age children are in private schools, charter schools, or being homeschooled, and many are out of school as early graduates, dropouts, military enlistees, etc.
The average tuition costs are skewed by a handful of private schools which charge the sun, moon and stars -- when you divide tuition by number of schools, the figures seem much higher than when you go by the amount paid by most private school students. This is the same thing as claiming that the average price of lunch that people pay in downtown SLC is $30 because of the prices charged by the handful of exclusive, high-priced restaurants.
The $7,500 per student is the school money divided by actual public school enrollment.
Thousands of school-age children are in private schools, charter schools, or being homeschooled, and many are out of school as early graduates, dropouts, military enlistees, etc.
The average tuition costs are skewed by a handful of private schools which charge the sun, moon and stars -- when you divide tuition by number of schools, the figures seem much higher than when you go by the amount paid by most private school students. This is the same thing as claiming that the average price of lunch that people pay in downtown SLC is $30 because of the prices charged by the handful of exclusive, high-priced restaurants.
"Free"? | 1:33 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
NOTHING at the public school is FREE, Manny. It is paid for by the taxpayers,
who are forced to pay whether they think it's a good idea or not.
To answer your question, YOU are being selective with facts. You are implying something which you know to be a lie ("free" this and "free" that).
To answer your question, YOU are being selective with facts. You are implying something which you know to be a lie ("free" this and "free" that).
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
- S.L., Provo mayors renew rivalry 5:45 p.m.
- Man sentenced for assault, stalking 5:44 p.m.
- Man pleads in drug-beating death 5:39 p.m.
- Input sought on nondiscrimination 5:29 p.m.
- Bill O'Reilly to speak at U. 5:28 p.m.
- I-15 crash snarls Davis traffic 5:27 p.m.
- Women a minority in Utah colleges 5:27 p.m.
- Charges considered in Roy shooting 5:25 p.m.
- Am. Fork band to nationals? 5:24 p.m.
- Fugitive Mapleton ex-official found 5:21 p.m.
- TCU showdown has big implications
- Seniors helped BYU regroup
- Hope for single moms
- Lambert surprisingly tops news
- Bystanders framed for child porn
- Korver and Miles to be evaluated
- Utah Jazz Extra: Whose hot/not
- Newhouse Hotel, an explosive end
- 12 high schools ready for 'The Turf'
- Reducing game time laughable
- Gay advocates trek to LDS office
261 - House passes health care bill221
- Lobo suspended176
- TCU showdown has big implications164
- Cougars crush hapless Cowboys153
- Utah Jazz fall apart against Kings130
- Thousands protest health bill110
- Provo company innovating engines108
- TCU 4th in AP poll; U. 16th, Y. 22nd108
- RSL rallies to advance103
Advertisement
Latest comments
Thank you for your service, Steve Butler.
"Which was the same argument made when a black man wanted to marry a white...
The thing is it was an article about gorbachev and not ronnie because...
in my opinion, they should leave it off, and take of the remaining portion as...
Oh my goodness, Don--a bit of hyperbole, no? Are you satisfied to continue...
Beautiful essay, Ann. My father-in-law came in on Utah Beach 24 hours after...
C'mon D-News
Thats right raise the tax on the poor.
Wow. Seriously? Who pissed in your orange juice this morning? Two men...
Kay McIff says big families don't really need a tax break? I thought this...
Advertisements
Well put.
Mr. Will says it all, and says it well. I hope everybody who plans to vote reads this one. This truly is a vote with consequences that reach beyond our little Wasatch Front.
Vote for 1. The nation is counting on it!