Reader comments
Poll shows vouchers losing by wide margin

Does it help elections to have these polls? Why go vote if it has already been decided by polls? No wonder voter turnout is so low.
We should do away with polls, in my opinion.

I think that polls do have an effect on turnout. But I'm not sure what the ultimate effect is. It seems like people who are anti-voucher might stay home because they're not concerned and people that are pro-voucher will stay home because they view the vote as a lost cause. I wish more people would vote, period.

Has anyone that is against the vouchers even read the bill outlining them. This voucher bill I was strongly against until I took time to read and understand it. This can only be good for Utah students. If it works then class sizes are reduced without reducing very much money per student. If it does not work then at least there is one alternative eliminated from our problem looming over the public school system. In my mind this voucher issue is not the real problem. The real problem is that right now the number of teachers is based upon the number of students in a classroom. We need to reduce the minimum number of students required per teacher!

The public no-pay is not unlike the Bush Administration where they offer free money to entrap the public who thought they were getting a bargin. The legislature has agreed to fund the experiment for only a few years. Then we get the shaft and the one's that were responsible have been promoted. It's a heck of a job.

the only two polls that will count on this voucher issue are the petition signers .. that poll has already taken place .. better then 120,000 registered utah voters were counted on that one ...
the next poll is next week when those same 120,000 petition signers will show up and sign again .. this time to reverse the law they previously signed a petition for

this is what you get for Utah, Capitol Hill trying to sneak programs past the voters. One day we can hope for real representation, not little lord barons playing politics

I think we need to weed out the people that are not paying into the City schools, going along for the free ride. This will cut classroom sizes, and will help minimize the teacher to student ratio. The money would be there, and they wouldnt have to be digging into the other funds to pay for it. Pay to Play.

Polls don't lie... Politicians do!

troutjig,

You must be talking about the illegals and their illegitimate anchor baby so called citizen children. We are forced to educate these squatters children because of a misinterpretation of the constitution and an activist supreme court.

Patriot,

Those kids ARE United States citizens unless the constitution is amended. After the Civil War the country decided that being born inside the United States granted citizenship, and I agree with the law.

The real issue we face now is even though the child is a citizen, the parent is not. I have no real answer to the problem, and I doubt our leaders have one either. But maybe taking away the kids and putting them under state custody would be enough of a deterrent to create such abuses of the system. I doubt that sort of law would hold up in court, and it seems a bit cruel.

Assuming Dan Jones & the BYU poll are proven correct in a week, what - if any - ramifications will there be for our elitist Legislature (yet again) presuming to know better what the people need, instead of asking them.

Unfortunately, based on history, I have to (cynically) believe the Legislature will change the referendum law to make it more difficult for citizens to get laws put to a popular vote.

I agree with Anonymous that vouchers can only help public schools. The educrats can't have it both ways. They want reduced class size but won't give up a portion of the dollars to get an empty seat. So to keep the money, they want to keep the kids. Teacher numbers are set by the number of students. But that is not set by the legislature. It is set by the State Board of Education and each district.
Also, for the 160,000 new kids coming into the system in the next ten years, we will need to build several new public schools. Property taxes will have to skyrocket to meet the demand. Private schools are built by private dollars, not tax dollars.
It was educators who went to the legislators, after the first bill passed, asking for the second bill to fix some holes. A majority of those who voted against the first bill voted for the second bill because educators said it would be good for public education. This referendum put forth by the UEA and NEA is dishonest and disingenuous. It's not about what's good for children. It's about control of teachers by the unions.

To all of you opposing vouchers I say, read the bill for yourself. Don't rely on the untruth's from educators. They are simply fear mongering. They can't be everything to every kid. Private schools may be able to help those kids who have fallen through the public crack.
Pell grants and VA benefits are vouchers. The Utah Tax Payers Association and the Utah Business Coalition support vouchers. Why? Because tax payers cannot continue to pay and pay and pay. Over the past three years, public education budget has been increased by 40% by $1 billion. Still it is not enough. It will never be enough to fill a black hole. Let's start thinking outside of the box. It it doesn't work, we get rid of it. If it works, teachers will have mud on their faces, just like they did when Charter Schools were proposed.

Vouchers do not reduce class size. First, the average spending per student in Utah is more like $5500, not $7500. Second, most of that money is spent on fixed costs. Regardless of student population within a single school, those fixed costs remain the same. The building didn't get cheaper. The computers didn't get cheaper. The teacher didn't either.

Beyond that, by reducing students enough, the underfunded public system will be forced to "compete" by hiring a smaller number of teachers. It's also important to remember that public schools are not profit centers, and will not respond like business do in an open market.

As for the 160,000 new students, well, that's something we call economic growth. That many new students also means new parents, new houses, new families, and more tax dollars.

And finally, supporter, only 9 votes changed from HB 148 to 174. That's not a majority.

To Anonymous,

I have read the bill cover to cover. It is poorly written, and poorly concieved.


To Supporter,
Vouchers do not reduce class sizes, they increase them. Also, the bill does not say that it will be a 'temporary expirement'. There is no requirement for the legislature to reauthorize it. Once passed, it continues as the law of the land unless a future legislature or referendum undoes the mess.


But my real reason for posting:

Why are so many Republicans supporting such a liberal program anyway? The solution to public education is to get rid of as much federal and state control as possible. Put authority into the hands of parent run school boards.

Creating another entitlement program is NOT conservativism.

Free markets already exist. Schools are free to open, and parents are free to give them their business. Since when did conservatives support these kinds of subsidies. Government subsidies and regulations always lead to failure.

Do you really support something this socialistic?

I believe that everyone would agree that the public school system is not working. This is the same school system we have had in place for much longer then my lifetime. The only problem I see is competition for teachers and competition for the public school system. I believe in capitalism. This should force educators to focus on what we should be the whole time. Education!

Do you read the newspaper? Go back and look at the past week's stories. There were a few that said how well Utah's schools are performing. Top of the nation.

So, no everyone would not agee that the public school system is not working. It is in fact doing wonders. Especially in Utah where so much is achieved on the lowest funding in the nation.

People that say it isn't working have believed too much Jon Stossel hype where he finds the worst school in the nation and says this is going on at your schools too.

It isn't.

Get up to speed. Go to your local school. See what is happening. What's that? It isn't happening at your school but you are sure it is happening at the school in the next city.

No it isn't.

Our schools are doing great. Yes they can improve and they will if the legislature ever funds them appropriately instead of wasting good money on lousy pieces of legislation.

Maybe one day.