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The voucher vote: Taking a closer look at both sides of this controversial education issue
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KP | 6:30 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
There are several flaws with HB 148:
*Student choice already exists. Charter schools exist all over the state. Open enrollment exists in all schools in Utah (except where a district has closed a school due to high enrollment).
*According to HB 148, if a student leaves a district to attend a selected private school, neither district will receive any monies. For example, if a Granite district student selects a private school in Jordan district, neither Jordan nor Granite receive any monies.
*If a student tries the private school but later decides to return to the public school after Oct. 1, there is no correction on monies sent to the private school or public school.
*Student choice already exists. Charter schools exist all over the state. Open enrollment exists in all schools in Utah (except where a district has closed a school due to high enrollment).
*According to HB 148, if a student leaves a district to attend a selected private school, neither district will receive any monies. For example, if a Granite district student selects a private school in Jordan district, neither Jordan nor Granite receive any monies.
*If a student tries the private school but later decides to return to the public school after Oct. 1, there is no correction on monies sent to the private school or public school.
Chuck | 7:50 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
IT IS NOT A SCHOLARSHIP! It's a subsidy, mostly to wealthy people. But
that's just more of the deceit behind those pushing vouchers.
Comments continue below
What public schools? | 8:01 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Whats the flaw with parents having a choice on where the money goes to educate
their child? Of course I'm not LDS, nor do I care who is. Seems to me
there is no seperation of Church and State in Utah, since the schools have to be
in close proximity of the churches. Thus, most "Utah Families" fear
that the current "public" schools would loose revenue. Utah Schools
have the worst per student spending because of the LDS values of large families.
Is there such a thing as a private LDS school? I've seen numerous other denominations.
Is there such a thing as a private LDS school? I've seen numerous other denominations.
GRM | 8:30 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
If we really want to give a scholarship (or choice) to someone who has special
needs and not the means to pay for it then by all means lets do it. But lets be
honest about it. This plan seems to disguise something that will actually help
more upper income people than the poor or low income people who really need more
help.
Typos or Loopholes? | 8:45 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
LOW INCOME?
There is nothing in HB148 that limits vouchers to low income. All eligibility requirements are listed in lines 86-102 of HB148. Income eligibility is 100% or less of the guideline (lines 98-100). However, if you look at the guideline on line 266 of the bill, there is no income upper limit. Loophole?
ENROLLED?
Requirements state the student was enrolled in a Utah public school on 1/1/07. Taken literally, that excludes children who hadn't yet started school on that date. Also, it doesn't mention they're enrolled for the school year, just on New Year's Day. Loophole?
RESIDENT?
Line 97 states they are not a Utah resident. This is clearly a typo as the "or" should preceed the line (see entire text).
BEFORE OR AFTER?
Age requirements state the student was born after 9/1/01. Didn't they mean BEFORE (aka prior to)? Students born after 9/1/01 would be 7 years of age or younger for the 08-09 school year. Typo?
Thus, the only voucher eligible students for the 08-09 school year would be 7 year old non-residents who were in public school on New Year's 2007.
Did Huntsman even read HB148 before he signed it? Did the politicians?
There is nothing in HB148 that limits vouchers to low income. All eligibility requirements are listed in lines 86-102 of HB148. Income eligibility is 100% or less of the guideline (lines 98-100). However, if you look at the guideline on line 266 of the bill, there is no income upper limit. Loophole?
ENROLLED?
Requirements state the student was enrolled in a Utah public school on 1/1/07. Taken literally, that excludes children who hadn't yet started school on that date. Also, it doesn't mention they're enrolled for the school year, just on New Year's Day. Loophole?
RESIDENT?
Line 97 states they are not a Utah resident. This is clearly a typo as the "or" should preceed the line (see entire text).
BEFORE OR AFTER?
Age requirements state the student was born after 9/1/01. Didn't they mean BEFORE (aka prior to)? Students born after 9/1/01 would be 7 years of age or younger for the 08-09 school year. Typo?
Thus, the only voucher eligible students for the 08-09 school year would be 7 year old non-residents who were in public school on New Year's 2007.
Did Huntsman even read HB148 before he signed it? Did the politicians?
NCG | 10:31 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Bills outline a program, policy wonks then write the regulations. However it
seemed to me that it excludes children already in the private schools. I am
voting for the Referendum, my children are grown but I would like to see other
parents being helped to get their children out of the public school system.
Even with the referendum it will require dedication on the parents part. My
children went to Catholic School, they went on to higher education and
successful lives, their cousins and other children in the neighborhood with
basically the same background and similar genes went on to drugs (in some cases)
and lower paying jobs.
They seem particularly uneducated regarding world affairs and politics and do not engage in volunteer work as my children do. In fact I doubt any of them vote. Public school is a joke and the only teachers I knew personally in the neighborhood smoked pot.
They seem particularly uneducated regarding world affairs and politics and do not engage in volunteer work as my children do. In fact I doubt any of them vote. Public school is a joke and the only teachers I knew personally in the neighborhood smoked pot.
Jay | 10:37 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
It is worth noting that choices have always been available in education and the
taxes we pay are for the benefit of living in an educated society, not
registration fees for our own children-- thus the requirement for everyone to
pay these taxes.
Justin Tyme | 11:00 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
If public school teachers understood economics, they would all vote for
Referendum 1.
In a free market, shortages produce an increase in prices. Why are starting salaries for Pharmacists over $100,000 a year? Because of a pharmacist shortage. Why aren�t teachers salaries increasing? Because teachers don�t work in a free market environment, they work in a monopolistic environment.
The best way for public school teachers to increase their salaries is to create a free market for their services. If more children go to private schools, private schools need to hire more teachers causing teacher salaries to rise. Referendum 1 provides additional money for public schools to compete with private schools. It has the potential to solve all of the challenges facing education in Utah without raising taxes or hurting anyone � except the UEA and NEA. The UEA and NEA get money by convincing teachers that the best way to increase their salaries is for the UEA to lobby the legislature to increase taxes and funding. Has this approach ever worked? Have public school teachers ever been paid what they are worth under this approach? Do you really think this will ever work in Utah? Wake up!
In a free market, shortages produce an increase in prices. Why are starting salaries for Pharmacists over $100,000 a year? Because of a pharmacist shortage. Why aren�t teachers salaries increasing? Because teachers don�t work in a free market environment, they work in a monopolistic environment.
The best way for public school teachers to increase their salaries is to create a free market for their services. If more children go to private schools, private schools need to hire more teachers causing teacher salaries to rise. Referendum 1 provides additional money for public schools to compete with private schools. It has the potential to solve all of the challenges facing education in Utah without raising taxes or hurting anyone � except the UEA and NEA. The UEA and NEA get money by convincing teachers that the best way to increase their salaries is for the UEA to lobby the legislature to increase taxes and funding. Has this approach ever worked? Have public school teachers ever been paid what they are worth under this approach? Do you really think this will ever work in Utah? Wake up!
Check Sources | 11:02 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
JB-Syracuse:
You'd better re-read HB148. There is no requirement for private schools to be accredited.
Complete requirements for voucher schools are listed in lines 132-198 of HB148.
Beginning on line 159, it reads: (voucher schools are required to) "provide, upon request to any person, a statement indicating which, IF ANY, organizations have accredited the private school," (emphasis added). This clearly indicates that voucher schools are not required to be accredited.
You'd better re-read HB148. There is no requirement for private schools to be accredited.
Complete requirements for voucher schools are listed in lines 132-198 of HB148.
Beginning on line 159, it reads: (voucher schools are required to) "provide, upon request to any person, a statement indicating which, IF ANY, organizations have accredited the private school," (emphasis added). This clearly indicates that voucher schools are not required to be accredited.
See how it's packaged | 11:20 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Pro Voucher stuff has been proposed many many times before.
It's like pro choice wording about abortion....It speaks to someone's ideas about freedom..."Why sure I'm for freedom".
But ask yourself who really benefits from this bill? The poor get no actual benefit from a voucher...It's really not enough money for the poor to send their child to a privateschool w/o incredible sacrifice! They might try it...But they won't be able to sustain the extra money out of their budgets(Do you eat or send your child to PubSch.)
It's socialism...Why are people that vote against the great society type welfare programs...For subsidizing private schools?
It does take money out of public schools - Schools are given $$$$ for every child that attends. If a child attends PrivateSchool that $$$$ does NOT(Stay at!) go to the publicschools.
Why can the legislature find several hundred million dollars for vouchers but they can't find it for publicschools?
Someone posted Utah Publicschools have the lowest per pupil funding in the nation! How can you justify this kind of money going to a Vprogram and can't find that money for Publicschools?
Are there ulterior motives for this program?
I believe there is!
It's like pro choice wording about abortion....It speaks to someone's ideas about freedom..."Why sure I'm for freedom".
But ask yourself who really benefits from this bill? The poor get no actual benefit from a voucher...It's really not enough money for the poor to send their child to a privateschool w/o incredible sacrifice! They might try it...But they won't be able to sustain the extra money out of their budgets(Do you eat or send your child to PubSch.)
It's socialism...Why are people that vote against the great society type welfare programs...For subsidizing private schools?
It does take money out of public schools - Schools are given $$$$ for every child that attends. If a child attends PrivateSchool that $$$$ does NOT(Stay at!) go to the publicschools.
Why can the legislature find several hundred million dollars for vouchers but they can't find it for publicschools?
Someone posted Utah Publicschools have the lowest per pupil funding in the nation! How can you justify this kind of money going to a Vprogram and can't find that money for Publicschools?
Are there ulterior motives for this program?
I believe there is!
Reply to Check sources/JB | 11:29 a.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Actually, not only will vouchers take away from education, but will also erode
funding from roads, justice system, and other programs. To say funding for
educatioin will not be effected is a joke.
Father of 2 | 1:31 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
The money given to public school for each child attending private school lasts
for up to 5 years and decreases each year. What then? Less money for public
school once again.
This bill does not help anyone. It's too little for the poor and rich alike. If you're making $100K, $500 is not going to make the difference in getting your kid into private school. Why bother?
The money is better spent improving public school than bringing the goal closer, but keeping it still out of reach.
This bill does not help anyone. It's too little for the poor and rich alike. If you're making $100K, $500 is not going to make the difference in getting your kid into private school. Why bother?
The money is better spent improving public school than bringing the goal closer, but keeping it still out of reach.
Dan | 1:38 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
National voucher/tax credit history is even more interesting. Reagan proposed
them in 1983 and the ACLU and their liberal allies have been fighting them ever
since, in every state.
Wake up, folks. This is an ideological battle, not a local one.
Wake up, folks. This is an ideological battle, not a local one.
DCR | 2:35 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
C'mon Father of 2, do the math. If the public schools do the job for $7500
and the private schools do it for under $5000 (most of them), why are you asking
for more money for public schools? Pass the vouchers and you'll have the
best of both. More money/pupil in public schools, smaller class sizes, and
happy parents.
The Same | 2:59 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
I know some people that will be voting no on this issue just because their kids
are already in private school and will not be eligible and dont want to give the
government any chance of getting involved in private schools. If this passes
eventually the private schools will be ran just like the public schools.
former teacher | 6:39 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
It's worth noting that the point of "public education" is
education. Why does "publicly-funded education" have to be equivalent
to "government-distributed education" or "public school system
bureaucracy"? Why can't education just be "publicly
funded"?
Just wondering.
To "see how it's packaged" - the education system you have now is socialism, friend, because it is government-run. When a commodity is allowed to function in an actual marketplace, that ain't socialism.
Just wondering.
To "see how it's packaged" - the education system you have now is socialism, friend, because it is government-run. When a commodity is allowed to function in an actual marketplace, that ain't socialism.
father to special needs kid | 6:56 p.m. Oct. 30, 2007
Reading the above seems non-personal. I am voting for it because I have had to
fight the school system at EVERY point in the education of my Special needs
child. One size does not fit all, but Jorden school district tries to do so.
IEPs - just words on paper, doesnt mean anything to teachers. I put a second
mortgage on my home to pay for 18 months of private schooling for my child, and
it helped beyond belief. How come private schools can teach, but public schools
just fight at every point?
I am not rich, even the minium 500 dollars would help. I am sure not getting my moneys worth out of Jorden schools.
THanks for letting me vent.
I am not rich, even the minium 500 dollars would help. I am sure not getting my moneys worth out of Jorden schools.
THanks for letting me vent.
David | 9:59 a.m. Oct. 31, 2007
How can you not be FOR choice? Apparantly the left wing is only for choice when
it comes to abortion. I should be able to choose what school my child goes to.
That competition alone will make all the schools better over time.
Most the pros and cons on here are all about funding and money per student and blah, blah, blah..... When will they learn class size and money spent does not equal better education. Most of Europe and Asia have been showing us that for decades. Look at Japan and their class sizes.
What we need is to get all the diversity junk and sex ed junk out of schools and teach kids a real education: math, science, history, reading, writing, etc...
Most the pros and cons on here are all about funding and money per student and blah, blah, blah..... When will they learn class size and money spent does not equal better education. Most of Europe and Asia have been showing us that for decades. Look at Japan and their class sizes.
What we need is to get all the diversity junk and sex ed junk out of schools and teach kids a real education: math, science, history, reading, writing, etc...
Matt | 1:40 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
Choice in Education is a good thing. Period! Some people say "What about
our Public Schools?" I say, "what about our children's
education?" Vouchers allow the small percentage of students who feel that
public schools aren't right for them to go somewhere else as they choose,
and be able to afford it. But the bottom line, is that it is still going to
"Education." That is the goal here, isn't it. We hold education
as a public value, but that doesn't mean that they must receive an
education at a public school, just a good school. And don't believe the
stupidity of an argument that says these private schools won't employ good
teachers. The market system will take care of that through competition.
Parents will not put their children in a bad school, well, they won't if
they have the "choice" to go somewhere else. Choice is good for
parents and good for students. If this doesn't pass next week, it will
surely resurface again in the future. Parents will demand choice!! Bramble and
Urquhart have it right!
Kris | 8:43 p.m. Oct. 31, 2007
There is such furry over this whole issue. The public school system has had it
their way for years. Why not give this a chance? It will make schools more
accountable to the families they serve. This should not be about "saving
public schools." It should be about providing a better education to more
students - period. If the students are not all the same (and my children are
all different) why should we think that there is only one way to sucessfully
teach children.
Let public education be on a more level playing field (even though is really is not level) with its competition. Lets give it a try see what the results produce. What do we have to fear. If the voucher schools don't preform, I am confident the parents will hold them accountable and they will be dropped like a lead balloon. Public education is already struggling with the burdens of so many students etc. This could be a real help in reducing class size and increasing per pupil funds. Lets give this a real chance. It could be the edge we need to make a real difference and engage more parents.
Let public education be on a more level playing field (even though is really is not level) with its competition. Lets give it a try see what the results produce. What do we have to fear. If the voucher schools don't preform, I am confident the parents will hold them accountable and they will be dropped like a lead balloon. Public education is already struggling with the burdens of so many students etc. This could be a real help in reducing class size and increasing per pupil funds. Lets give this a real chance. It could be the edge we need to make a real difference and engage more parents.
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I�ve read the Referendum (on Utah�s legislative website) and it�s NOT true to say that it requires no accreditation. It absolutely does. It also won�t touch the current education funds � it pulls from a separate fund. That means MORE money going toward education in Utah, not less. What better way to use Utah�s tax surplus? Taxes won�t go up. Utah�s doing pretty well financially right now. Read it � 2007 House Bill 148 � and decide for your family.
Sadly, none of my four daughters will even qualify for vouchers. I�ll still vote for it so that other parents have the choice and, if it passes, maybe it will open the door for choices that fit my family�s situation in the future.