Deseret News | Packing heat, no apologies

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Packing heat, no apologies

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jimmyc | 2:05 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Should I defend the lifes of my loved ones? Or hide, call the police and hope they show up in time to save at least one of us?

Who Do You Trust | 3:02 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

So if one of us cuts off a member of the "open carry" crew on the freeway, are you going to guarantee me that they won't flip out and start shooting someone? Are homicides ruled out if half the state is wearing a gun? I will try to refrain from pointing it out if some kid gets shot due to copying mom and dad's attitude with the open carry idea. "Well, if mom and day say it's okay to wear a gun in public whether they need it or not, I'll just get one of their 25 different hand guns (one for each of their favorite restaurants) and wear it to the football game Friday night. Then I'll bet the bullies from that other school will leave me alone!"

Who Do You Trust | 3:16 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Our murder rate in Utah is one of the lowest in the nation. So of course, we all need to start wearing a gun to TGI Fridays. I can see the logic in that. And when the gang bangers from Cali roll in a spot a group sitting at the park all wearing weapons, what do you think their reaction might be? "We shouldn't shoot them right where they stand. These guys believe in open carry!"
No, sorry, they are going to shoot the obvious threats to their control of the streets - they don't care what statement you're trying to make.

Comments continue below

Dustin | 3:48 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

A good reason to want to move to Utah; people not required to be helpless.

It is one thing to choose to deprive yourself of safety and freedom. That is your choice.

But to impose that handicap upon others, because you are a mental deficient, is quite another.

Shame to those who have a problem with open carry or firearms.

snowdog | 3:51 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

after reading all the comments, I've decided, that you should have the right,if law alows. to carry a weapon openly, but the sad part about it, just one ill-responsibie person to ruin it for the law following american.

fear | 5:07 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Carrying a firearms is not about fear, but about trust. We trust that those around around us are also armed are going to do no harm. There is always a small chance that a ranadom act of violence may happen, but we would rather have the tools for such an event, than to not have the tools.

sosueme534 | 5:53 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

This comment session has opened my eyes to the things I never thought about before, my daughter and her husband bought a handgun last year and I freaked, but you are right my grandchildren need to be protected and I think I will sign up for a gun safety course tomorrow, I am retired and home alone most of the time as my husband works out of town, It is time I took the responsibilty for my safety on myself. thank you all for helping me see that guns are only dangerous in the hands of the untrained and criminals.

cop | 6:32 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

as a cop i dont have a problem with open carry, as long as are smart enough to know what not to do with there hands when i am dealing with them. i carry off duty all the time, but there is no way that i would open carry off duty. but that is my choice and these people have their choice. just be careful and smart about it.

.40 | 7:24 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I carry because you don't!

Citizen1 | 8:23 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

After reading the comments... I am astounded. The police are just one layer of protection, they are not the only layer. As far as i am concerned, the final and most important layer of defense is me (and I want a weapon - as a former athlete and military officer, I know my limitations). I also know the typical "profile" of police officers. There is no magic training or character test or personality assessment that transforms these individuals into super-cops. The same logic applies to the military - They're good, they're disciplined, they're on the right side, but they make mistakes too. So if the military has their limitations, so do the police. And for Ms "Policeman's Wife", they're trained for stress, weapons retention, legalities, etc. But my money is on me and a similar law abiding people to have the ability and will to defend themselves should the need arise.

People for Doc Hudsun... | 8:34 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Personally, I think we should hold every gun responsible for the death of others because it is the guns that kill people. I would like to see these guns put on trial and prosecuted to the fullest. If we strike fear into the hearts of guns I think they will stop fireing. I'm also sick of automobiles driving under the influence. I would also like to see more cars brought to justice for these are the true killers.

The Duck | 8:35 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

This article makes me consider Utah as a place to live when I retire.
It is good to see that Utah residents do want to be helpless sheep.

By the way there have been guns in my home for over fifty years, & not one has caused anyone to commit murder, sucide, nor have any of them ever accidently shot anyone

Haris Pilton | 8:38 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

It's completely natural. It is Darwin's natural selection (which liberals tout all the time) at work.

Don't get between a mother lion and her cubs.

I don't see gungrabbing liberal fruitcakes out trying to declaw lions and tigers in the wild. So don't try to declaw humans either. There are plenty of predators that walk on 2 legs.

Give me a break... | 8:44 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Who do you trust,

You're right. Because every random shooting ie trolly square and others, the victums have advanced notice this would happen and not to be in the area. Heaven forbid someone buy cards and gifts for loved ones two days before valentines day in a good mall. By the way, what is the definiton of random? Just curious.

The fact is, people carry becasue of the unexpected and because they are SICK of this sort of thing happening and they honestly believe that if the situation comes, they can do something about it. Crime follows the path of least resistance, that certainly seems logical. I hope the next time I go to TGI Fridays they're at the table next to me.

Dave | 8:51 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I am appalled by everyone who would say that these people are paranoid to open-carry. I would call you ignorant. If you don't even feel a responsibility to protect yourselves or your loved ones, why do you expect somebody else to?

new kid in town | 9:03 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I have changed my mind too. I am 56 years old and have never been involved in anything that has required me to need or use a handgun. After reading these posts I have decided that my safe life thus far has been an illusion. I am buying not just one gun, but two, becuase I am not as safe and happy as I thouht I was.

ARMYRANGER | 9:09 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I'm proud of these people for exercising their right to keep and bear arms. After 6 years of service in the infantry and three combat tours overseas, I challenge anyone to tell me that I "lack the proper training" to carry a weapon concealed or open in public.

Jeff | 9:30 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Who do you trust,
Did it ever occur to you that maybe those gang bangers from Cali will see those armed people in the park and decide that taking them on is not worth the risk? Gang members are not exactly in a hurry to die, that is why they prefer to prey on unarmed victims. There are two ways people interact, through reason and through force. If you believe you can reason your way out of any situation where someone wishes to do you harm, fine. If you believe the best course of action when dealing with a predator is to surrender and comply, more power to you. That is the situation you have chosen to put yourself in. Some of us prefer to have an alternative available when someone is attacking us and reason no longer works.

WIllie 2 | 9:43 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I am concerned that so many people are depending on the police to "defend" them in a time of dire emergency. Look at the whole Katrina fiasco. The police were unable to respond to emergency calls, some of them were even involved in criminal acts. I have read accounts of neighbors banding together to defend their communities. I know this is far from an open carry comment, but when the chips are down, I will count on my neighbors. Armed Citizens. Personally I have had a CCW permit for 15 years, never once even shown my gun. But that could all change the next time I go outside.Good Luck and God Bless the USA.

NV res | 9:46 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Although I mostly carry concealed, I fully support the right of these people to carry open. When I travel across the US, I carry concealed in the states that recognize my permits. Some of the states that don't recognize my permits allow open carry, so that's what I do when visiting them. I try to avoid Non-free states like California and New York as much as possible. I would bet that quite a few individuals in this article, like myself, have received firearms training that far exceeds the annual requirements for law enforcement. A lot of police officers seek out additional training as well on their own dime.

Tony Heaton | 9:46 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Wife of a police officer. Most people that carry firearms are better trained and shoot more often than most police officers. I know many officers and the majority of them only shoot once a year, when it's time to re-qualify. 11% of police shootings end in an innocent bystander being killed, 2% of citizen shootings end in an innocent bystander being killed.

ralph | 9:50 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Supporters of gun control are guilty of the murders of the innocent disarmed Americans slain in the criminal empowerment zones. The ones who actually legislate gun control are TRAITORS who need eradication most swiftly. Bearing arms- openly, or concealed has nothing to do with use of arms. If someone criminally misuses arms, then the absolute best thing that can happen is the crowd around him draws, fires, and the sanitation dept comes and hoses the remains into the gutter where it belongs. Enough of housing and feeding criminals. PS: Illegals need same.

Tony Heaton | 9:54 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Please don't preach to us about weapons retention. Most of us have been trained. With that in mind, most police officers that are killed, are killed with their own weapons. Have they been trained in weapon retention? It's a said thing when anyone is killed, but police officers often have no better training than we who choose to carry. Also, police are under no legal obligation to protect citizens. That fact has been upheld by many courts, including SCOTUS.

OU_Gryphon | 10:12 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Who Do You Trust:
It sounds like you don't trust anyone with guns since I can't guarantee you that anyone won't flip out and kill someone. Sounds like paranoia to me. On a side note, I can't guarantee that anyone won't drive drunk either and drunk drivers kill far more people than guns. Following your line of thinking, should we ban cars or require breathalyzer lockouts on all cars?

I also find it hilarious than in the next post you say Utah has a low murder rate therefore guns are unneeded. Then in the next sentence you talk about desperados from California taking out the people carrying guns. Which is it? Is Utah safe from gun violence or not?

And for the record, it is up to the individual to take the risk of being the first person shot in an incident. If you don't want to be an obvious target, then carry concealed or not at all, but don't try to make my CHOICE for me. Liberals are still big on "choice", aren't they?

Tarzan1888 | 10:16 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Someone asked how may times someone used a gun to protect themselves vs how many children were accidently killed by a gun.

According the the vital statistics of the US, in 2004, the most current year for records, 63 children 14 and under,were accidently kiled with a firearm in the US.

That is really sad, BUT hundereds and thousands have been saved, by those who have used a firearm in self defense.

Ther are those who listen to the truth and those who don't.

I don't like what those who fear guns say, but I know they have the right to say it.

The difference is that those who don't like me carrying a gun, refuse to acknowledge my right to do so.

Some numb noggen suggested, in jest, that we arm our 6 year olds.

I started toi carry a pocket knife when I was 6, after I had learned how to properly use it.

I started to shoot, with supervision at age 6 and was given a .22 when I was 10.

The was almost 50 years ago. I have been around knives and guns my whole life and I have never gone crazy and killed people.

Tarzan

Mark Townsend | 10:27 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Poor Poor Greta ... and others... who fear armed people. So you won't be "in the same room" as an armed citizen?
How do you know you haven't been in a room with people carrying concealed?
Ah ... maybe you'd better stay out of ALL rooms.

packingmama | 10:42 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

sosueme534 - I am so glad you are thinking of signing up for a gun safety course. You won't regret it one bit.

citizen1 - I am thrilled that you have seen the right side of things to get a weapon, now we all together will be a more polite society.

the duck - I hope you do come to Utah to live when you retire, its a great place to live.

new kid in town - woohooo you are buying two guns! That was our objective in open carrying to educate Utahns and others. We are going to start doing this on a monthly basis. Come and join us!

willie2 - thank you for bringing up Katrina, this is my point exactly. If we have some sort of big disaster the cops won't be there to rescue us! It may take days, weeks, even months or NEVER to come to our aid because we may be dead. We have to protect ourselves and our loved ones. You just never know when something might happen.

I invite you all to come attend our next meet. Go to the website mentioned in the article to find out details.

........ | 10:56 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Wow, you say "Most of us have been trained", that also means a lot have not. Keep in mind that Utah has given concealed weapons licenses to two legally BLIND people allowing them to carry in 30 other states. I wouldn't say I feel safe knowing that it's that easy to get a license to carry. I'm from California and it's very difficult to get a CWL there, they require you to pass a written and a shooting test every year to keep your license, and actual reasons to justify the license, not just because you want one. I'm all for the rights to own guns and carry them, I just think the training and testing for concealed carry licenses needs to be increased dramatically in Utah.

Message to CANUCK.... | 10:55 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

You don't get it do you? You can't compare the crime rates of Canada with the United States. We are a Free country! Now if you must do a comparision...then compare the crime rates of Canada with the American Prison Facilities. That would more resemble the form of government you choose to live under.
"A Free People Ought to be Armed"....George Washington
For Liberty!!!

Wendy Weinbaum | 11:07 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

As a Jewess in the US, I totally APPLAUD the actions of these courageous individuals in keeping their rights active and alive! Let's ALL put our 2nd Amendment FIRST! Because remember...when every second counts....the police are just minutes away! LOL.

Arthur | 11:17 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I see no problem here. A bunch of law abiding legal gun owners operating within the law. What's the problem?

I think we should be more worried about criminals illegally posessing and concealing a weapon and walking among us. Note I said weapon, not firearm. Criminals don't mind killing you with a knife, bludgeon, hammer, or a rock or even their bare hands. A gun is just a tool; like any tool it can be used for good or evil..

Blind carry.... | 11:23 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

"Keep in mind that Utah has given concealed weapons licenses to two legally BLIND people allowing them to carry in 30 other states"

Given the fact that most confrontations requiring the use of a firearm take place at night (in the dark) I wouldn't count out the blind guy;) In a perfect world, blind people wouldn't even have to apply for a license to carry, and I feel they should be able to protect themselves just like any other citizen of the USA. Why deny them that right... I would consider a different form of protection for them, knife, taser, etc. that they can physically apply to the attacker, but in no way should they be denied the right to defend themselves.

Tony Heaton | 11:33 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Bill of Rights, the article didn't deal with children. However, Have you ever read the Constitution? What about other papers written by the founding fathers? Federalist Papers, Anti-Federalist papaers? If not, then your opinion on what they meant is useless.

Kev | 11:33 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I cannot speak for all permit holders because I am only me, but as a concealed license holder I take the responsibility very seriously. I have had formal training, study tactics and articles, watch training videos, and PRACTICE at least monthly (more often if possible). My choice to carry a weapon came one day after getting tired of hearing about a family that was attacked and the parents killed in front of their children. I do not look for or want trouble, but I love my family and will defend them if necessary. You pass armed people all the time and you do not now it; some of them are criminals and some are not. If carrying a weapon is not for you then that's okay, but don't go forcing your opinions on me by demanding that I cannot possess the tools to defend my loved ones!

I am convinced | 11:34 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I have been in support of gun control until I read these posts.

I used to believe in Sarah Brady, that anyone with a gun was a criminal, and that they were the ones talking about open and concealed carry.

I see that I was lied to.

Some of these posts convinced me that a few of the gun control supporters are irrational, mentally unstable, and would probably be the ones shooting up a "gun free" zone if they were to obtain a firearm, even just to further their cause.

So it is the law abiding people that want to carry their guns openly, or concealed, whichever is more practical for them.

Convicted criminals and gang members are prohibited from having a gun, but carry them anyway.

After researching what was posted earlier about the police, government, and 911 being under no obligation, and assuming no liability for my protection, I am signing up for firearms training, and will be buying a gun soon to protect my family and home. Yes, I already have smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, and a burglar alarm that dials someone to being a gun.

One of the Sheep | 11:48 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

There are sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. The sheep will continue to complain about the sheepdogs until the wolves show up. Then, they will be so happy the sheepdogs are there to save them. Hooray for the sheepdogs!

The Duck | 11:49 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I trained a "Legally Blind" guy in Ohio, He could really see pretty well at night!, Bright sunlight was nearly physically painful for him!
We did his rangetime in low light, & he shoots better than a lot of my other students.
"legally Blind" does not mean Blind.

as to...... from California, LA county Population 1 million, has more killings per year than the state of Ohio with a population of 12 million , & if you check the FBI crime stats a boatload more than Utah!!

Benjamin N. Hare | 11:56 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

A very impressive write up and one that challenges the status quo in America; that of a class-division between those who are "allowed" to carry and those who are not. As a firm believer in Open Carry myself I was prepared to cringe when reading the article. Instead, I found myself quite impressed. Please keep up the great work by continuing to take editorial chances like this.

OU_Gryphon | 11:57 a.m. Oct. 23, 2007

To "I am convinced":
Good for you! There are a lot of good resources out there for the new shooter. Probably the best all around place to start is "packing dot org" (this forum blocks URLs so you will have to type it in yourself). I also recommend finding a local gun range that rents guns and take their basic gun safety course. I have never met someone who didn't enjoy shooting their first time at the range and the people you will meet there are some of the nicest, friendliest people you can find. Enjoy, be safe, and God bless.

Feather | 12:19 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

All of this talk on untrained, undisiplined gun owners defending their lives and liberties kinda remind me the men of the American revolution. You know all those untrained farmers that beat off the most powerful military of the time. And won freedom and liberty for all? The same that started the American Militia? What? National Guard is the militia? Haven't you read the Constitution? You know that silly document that provided law and order for the collonies. Yeah it clearly states;
Section 311.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.
Oh but you don't want the responsibility? Well thats ok I see a few people willing to take your place...

Amy Sue | 12:27 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Anti-gun liberals believe in gun control, they say they are scared of guns, until ....... they get mugged. After that it is all about the second amendment.
I dont feel obligated to be mugged or raped. I WILL defend myself, thank you, very much. I will NOT be a victim!

Bob | 12:30 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I for one am thrilled to see Americans excercising their rights and acting like Americans!! How small of a mind do you have to have to live your life in constant fear of everything that might possibly go wrong? You might as well start wearing helmets everywhere you go "just in case"! Mindless fools...

To those fear mongering compromisers/controllers that have posted here and probably failed history class and insist in living in a fear/government controlled society, you should hang your heads in shame on Veterans day quietly in your homes knowing that you are made and kept free by the efforts of men far greater than you. What a disgusting shame and disgrace. America wasn't made free by the police or by a professional trained army, but a rag-tag bunch of citizens on the edge of physical and mental endurance, barely held together, but with enough passion and courage to stand up against the greatest army in the known world and do the right thing when it mattered most. Just plain old citizens doing what was right. Imagine that...

Those that sacrifice freedom for safety...deserve neither.

DEFENDER | 12:38 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

In "Things one must believe to support gun control," the author says "Most people can be trusted so no one NEEDS to carry a gun -- but people shouldn't be ALLOWED to carry guns because most people CAN'T be trusted."
It was predictable that when shall-issue concealed carry became the norm (If you have no felony record, the State MUST sell you a permit, after you meet their requirements for exercising a RIGHT), that more people would carry visibly to avoid being registered. Also predictable was that they would be considered radicals. In my state open carry is legal also, but people who exercise that right are reported as "man with a gun" as if they were actively, aggressively threatening others, and police scramble. Lives are risked. It is a reaction once reserved for "uppity [N-word]s" who insisted on using white bathrooms and restaurants. Think about THAT, gun-fearing Americans. Could YOU be the BACKWARD ones? What other freedoms might YOUR critics feel are threatening? It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not survive.

packingmama | 12:40 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

I am convinced -
I am so glad you are convinced. Except one thing the website you were referred to "packing dot org" (this forum blocks URLs so you will have to type it in yourself). Does not exist anymore. Try the website in this article. It gives you great advice and tells you all about the laws in all the states etc. Pretty much anything you would want to know about guns or laws is there on top of great forum stories.

Anonymous | 1:03 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

The so-called "conservative" point of view is the same as a paranoid personality disorder.
And these poor "conservative" souls have totally submitted to authority with the wrong people in authority positions.

Re: The Duck | 1:26 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

It's funny that the DMV thinks it's too dangerous for him to operate a car, yet the state gives him a license to carry gun? It's about the safety of everybody else around him should he find it necessary to start shooting. He has a very high potential of shooting someone he can't see. He might see his intended target given the right light and the right time of day, but not the little girl 10 feet behind his target should he miss...He doesn't have the tools to properly assess the situation before he starts shooting. Everybody wants to say it's discrimination not to give it to a blind person a gun, and you're right it is. But then why is ok to for them to discriminate against a mentally deficient person? are they not Americans? Why don't they have the same rights? Because it's not safe! I'm sorry there are just some things some people just can't or shouldn't do.

Oh, And Los Angeles County has almost 10 million people. And the FBI crime stats do not include local Police or State Sheriff stats.

Scared | 1:27 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Guns don't kill people, Chuck Norris kills people...

Anonymous | 1:51 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

An armed society is an uncivilized one, driven by fear.

So much for freedom, when you feel that you have NO CHOICE but to carry a weapon. How did it come to this? So much for the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave.

It's all about the bullies now. Their rights obviously outrank those who dream of real freedom.

Dont tread on me. | 2:21 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

'the right of the people to KEEP and BEAR arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.'

If YOU choose not to exercise that right, thats fine. Thats called freedom. But do not try to force ME to abide by your choice or belief. Thats called oppression.

Gary | 2:25 p.m. Oct. 23, 2007

Anonymous, Wrong! We have a choice and that makes us free. And it is the guns that have and do make this country free. People who are willing to lay down their lives for others.

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