Reader comments
Teacher misconduct in Utah: State's rate more than double the national average
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Anonymous | 3:23 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
How terribly sad. I wholeheartedly agree that there should be harsher
penalties. The article states: "a teacher at an unspecified Alpine high
school had his license suspended following a guilty plea to three counts of
forcible sexual abuse of minors" His license was suspended?? How about
revoked completely? And a long jail sentence.
Do the math. | 4:09 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
So the numbers show 11 a year out of 24,000. That is 11 too many. But that
shows that 23,989 are doing what they are supposed to.
I'm for tougher laws for teachers and other people in authority. I'd like to see that one passed.
Please don't make it out to be every teacher is out to molest kids.
Also I view pornography as a terrible, terrible thing. But I would like to know if those numbers include the teacher fired for pornography or are those actual abuse cases? There is a huge difference in the two.
I respect the teaching profession. Clearly we need to somehow weed out the few bad apples but we also need to applaud the great teachers we have in this state.
I'm for tougher laws for teachers and other people in authority. I'd like to see that one passed.
Please don't make it out to be every teacher is out to molest kids.
Also I view pornography as a terrible, terrible thing. But I would like to know if those numbers include the teacher fired for pornography or are those actual abuse cases? There is a huge difference in the two.
I respect the teaching profession. Clearly we need to somehow weed out the few bad apples but we also need to applaud the great teachers we have in this state.
Conduct in Other States | 5:45 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
As a past School Board member in an Eastern State, I can tell you that most (the
high majority) of sexual abuse cases are swept under the rug by school boards in
that state. They are not reported to the State, unless the crime is particularly
egregious. I doubt Utah Boards of Education act that way.
That accounts for what appears to be the much higher rate in Utah.
That accounts for what appears to be the much higher rate in Utah.
Comments continue below
a real republican | 8:49 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
This is an example of market forces at work.
You get what you pay for.
Utah is unwilling to a decent living wage to it's teachers, and so it gets the indecent.
You get what you pay for.
Utah is unwilling to a decent living wage to it's teachers, and so it gets the indecent.
Spectators are not innocent | 9:41 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
Do the Math -- You make a good point, but unfortunately it isn't as black
and white as "bad apples" and good apples. For example, usually some
of the "23,989" have often observed things and not reported them.
Conduct in other states -- You are right: the most frightening thing about this isn't what we know, it what hasn't been reported.
Anonymous -- Tougher laws may help, but real prevention would be even better.
Teachers unions see themselves as providers of quality labor to schools, but quality is much more than a certificate. They need to have a national complaint registry for ALL complaints -- criminal or not -- and the teacher's response in their defense. This registry needs to be part of the hiring process.
Also, use some of those in-service days as MANDATORY misconduct training EACH YEAR. Train teachers what is wrong, precautions to protect them against wrongful accusations, and what and how they should report about their peers.
There is so much a union could do to protect our children -- if it cared enough about them to do so.
Conduct in other states -- You are right: the most frightening thing about this isn't what we know, it what hasn't been reported.
Anonymous -- Tougher laws may help, but real prevention would be even better.
Teachers unions see themselves as providers of quality labor to schools, but quality is much more than a certificate. They need to have a national complaint registry for ALL complaints -- criminal or not -- and the teacher's response in their defense. This registry needs to be part of the hiring process.
Also, use some of those in-service days as MANDATORY misconduct training EACH YEAR. Train teachers what is wrong, precautions to protect them against wrongful accusations, and what and how they should report about their peers.
There is so much a union could do to protect our children -- if it cared enough about them to do so.
greg | 10:04 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
How many of these suspensions are from false accusations?
I've heard of several cases where these kids (don't think your kids are SO innocent), blackmail the teachers or coaches with threats of harrassment if they don't get their way. Or they've been so OVERCOACHED by their parents that ANYTHING they do warrants sexual harrassment.
Some of those teachers have faught it but most didn't--but were so disgusted they just walked away from it all forever.
BE CAREFUL NOT TO JUDGE LEST YE BE JUDGED.
I've heard of several cases where these kids (don't think your kids are SO innocent), blackmail the teachers or coaches with threats of harrassment if they don't get their way. Or they've been so OVERCOACHED by their parents that ANYTHING they do warrants sexual harrassment.
Some of those teachers have faught it but most didn't--but were so disgusted they just walked away from it all forever.
BE CAREFUL NOT TO JUDGE LEST YE BE JUDGED.
Clare | 10:28 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
Sick. Any teacher who would do such a thing deserves a severe punishment. They
should never be allowed to be near children again.
real republican? | 10:36 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
You are saying higher paid people would not have these problems? Pretty naive
buddy. The pornography problem is not limited to the poor or uneducated.
Anonymous | 10:55 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
I hate to say it but there a lot of people that get paid a lot more money than a
teacher that still commit these types of crimes. Money changes nothing here.
DEWitt | 11:18 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
I think standards of what is considered "indecent" or
"pornographic" may be higher in Utah than in other states. Prevailing
attitudes in the world do not see this as a problem in the same way many in Utah
see it. I doubt a CA teacher would be fired for viewing porn. Our Ed system in
UT has many shortcomings, but I like our enforcement of these standards. This
may be the reason for higher stats.
Phil | 11:53 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007
I worked at a place with a huge problem of pornography. The average pay was
around 120,000. There were no children around, so that was a good thing. A lot
of guys would take trips to thailand all the time. I am glad I don't work
there anymore. As far as teacher pay, for quite a few years teacher pay say in
the Salt Lake valley, I think was very good. Now since it cost twice as much
for a home, I know Jordan school district is having a hard time finding
teachers. That was not the case a few years ago.
Ken Baguley | 12:05 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
There has to be more one on one communication with teachers and open discussions
regarding pornography and personal relations between students and teachers and
their practices. On a continuing basis. This sounds like the restrictions are
not known nor clear. Teachers are said to be more educated and intelligent than
the norm...The above incidents don't prove that.
Punishment is no deterrant | 2:48 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
If you have ever watched "To Catch a Predator" you know that threat of
punishment, even eminent punishment, is now deterrent. There are evaluations
that can be conducted that are pretty good at predicting these behaviors and
preferences and they should be utilized prior to giving these miscreants jobs.
Lie detectors should be legalized for use in pre-screening. The risks are just
too high. In this case I believe the communities rights to predator free
schools outweighs the rights of the individual to privacy and the chance of
false positive tests. Nothing is perfect, but our children aren't worth
the risk. Alcoholics should not be bartenders and and pedophiles should not be
teachers. Even recovering pedophiles.
Michael | 4:47 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
The headline clearly implies Utah has twice the problem compared to the rest of
the country. However, the story says Utah teachers are suspended twice as often
*in comparison to other reasons for suspension*. This does not mean Utah has
twice the incidents or twice the problem. It could be that Utah more frequently
suspends teachers' licenses rather than passing the problems on, or because
Utah has fewer other reasons for suspensions. Where is the report that more
accurately defines the problem? What is the rest of the story?
I don't mean to downplay the seriousness of the problem, but when you compare Utah with other states you affect the state's economy, influencing companies and potential employees who are deciding whether to locate in Utah.
The story also implies that the problem is unique to public schools ("In a state where about one of every five residents is enrolled in a public school..."). The companion story states that because teachers at private schools are not licensed we do not know the extent of the problem there.
I don't mean to downplay the seriousness of the problem, but when you compare Utah with other states you affect the state's economy, influencing companies and potential employees who are deciding whether to locate in Utah.
The story also implies that the problem is unique to public schools ("In a state where about one of every five residents is enrolled in a public school..."). The companion story states that because teachers at private schools are not licensed we do not know the extent of the problem there.
What job is more important? | 7:01 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
What job is more important to our society than teachers? We need the
elite/brightest people in our society to teach our youth. The elite &
brightest people will never become teachers because they don't pay enough.
Teachers | 8:17 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
I worked in CA and we fired teachers who were using the school computers to surf
the Internet for pornography. We had several in our district who lost their
jobs because they found pornography on their classroom computer or school
laptop.
Our teachers were earning nearly $80,000 a year and it still didn't stop them from looking for pornography.
Our school district was known as a rough school because of the high number of suspensions and expulsions, yet when we compared our statistics to surrounding districts the other districts were simply "slapping" the hands of the students who violated the school laws and allowing them to continue to attend school. Our district let the students know what was expected of them and we held assemblies at the beginning of each school year to let them know our expectations. We also gave them a matrix to let them know what the rules were and the consequences for violations. But to look at the statistics it made us look as if we had bad students. We were more diligent in protecting the other students so they could come to school without fear of violence.
Our teachers were earning nearly $80,000 a year and it still didn't stop them from looking for pornography.
Our school district was known as a rough school because of the high number of suspensions and expulsions, yet when we compared our statistics to surrounding districts the other districts were simply "slapping" the hands of the students who violated the school laws and allowing them to continue to attend school. Our district let the students know what was expected of them and we held assemblies at the beginning of each school year to let them know our expectations. We also gave them a matrix to let them know what the rules were and the consequences for violations. But to look at the statistics it made us look as if we had bad students. We were more diligent in protecting the other students so they could come to school without fear of violence.
Crazy Talk | 9:38 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
Sexual harassment, promiscuity, themes, problems, and issues are out of control
in the public schools, and this affects both students and teachers. Many of
these teachers are just people who refused to grow up and go out into the real
world, so they got degrees and went back to high school where they felt
comfortable. I had a teacher years ago who had married one of her students while
he was still in highschool! They were my neighbors, and were good people, but it
was still really strange! Perhaps they should put an age limit on teachers so
they can only return to HS and teach after they turn 30. Or maybe they should
implement a Team Teaching requirement so that no teacher is ever alone with
students! Something has got to be done to bring some sanity to our schools.
BYUGradUtahLaw | 11:11 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
We have more children and more teachers per capita in this state. The statistic
should not be that surprising. I think we do a good job catching offenders
compared to other states.
News flash! | 11:25 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
For "What job is more important?"
Teaching will rarely attract and keep the "best and brightest" because of the low compensation. According to economics, we think what teachers do is less valuable than what professional athletes do; we pay professional athletes millions of dollars and we pay teachers a pittance. Either the market system is failing or we as a society are failing or both.
Teaching will rarely attract and keep the "best and brightest" because of the low compensation. According to economics, we think what teachers do is less valuable than what professional athletes do; we pay professional athletes millions of dollars and we pay teachers a pittance. Either the market system is failing or we as a society are failing or both.
face the facts | 8:51 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007
Did some of you miss this statement? "Sometimes I don't think people
realize the extent of the sexual perversion that is in the underbelly of this
state," he said.
And maybe some of you don't realize that bibical values and family values are taken very seriously in other states.
I have friends in Utah who have observed problems in their workplace.... so face up to it, and deal with it.
And maybe some of you don't realize that bibical values and family values are taken very seriously in other states.
I have friends in Utah who have observed problems in their workplace.... so face up to it, and deal with it.
not naive in Oregon | 10:08 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007
anyone at all familiar with the perverse and mishapen mind and world of child
predators would never assume a pay scale in any way influences the crimes.
perpetrators come in all shapes, genders, professions,political parties,
occupations,and ages and affect all states in our great union. this crime
flourishes in situations and communities that allow it by turning blind or naive
eyes to it and sweeping it under rugs. a thankful thumbs-up to any persons or
organizations who have the courage to step up and step forward, do what is right
and protect the innocent. in schools or out, teachers or not. and if utah has a
higher rate of weeding perps out of the school community they should be proud
and applauded.
Apliner | 1:56 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007
What are the chances that so many would come from the Alpine Area, where they
pride themselves to being the most conservitive of the conservitives in Utah
County. No liquor, but child abuse appears not to be taboo.
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