Deseret News | Reader comments: Utah's proposed voucher law subverts our American values

Reader comments
G. Don Gale: Utah's proposed voucher law subverts our American values

Subverting American values | 12:42 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

It's easy to tell that the writer was public schooled. Nobody who has any better education would believe that it is somehow un-American for parents to ask for some of their tax money back, for ANY reason.

Nothing subverts American values like indoctrinating entire generations of kids with the idea that teachers are a protected, elite class of employee.

crandle | 12:56 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

I'm for anything that will tear down the existing monolith called public schools.

Michael Brown | 1:39 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

I'm a voucher supporter, but I see the author's concern and suppose that vouchers may potentially contribute. Still, government employees delivering education has resulted in schools that:

can't respond to a family's special needs;

can't discipline effectively;

can't resist indoctrination;

can't remove lazy or incompetent, but tenured 10% (you know you had some);

can't leave any child behind (i.e., must hold performers back to focus on lowest common denominator, while still letting them graduate when they can't read);

must pay the bottom 10% within 10% of the top 10%;

How about a restructuring that keeps today's schools completely in tact, but hands the management roll over to contractors? Then BUSINESS can pay today's public stars much better, and help those presently on white-collar welfare find a job at Home Depot. They could hire a retiring chemist with a knack for teaching kids, but today's system keeps him out over a silly "certificate".

We've got to do something, and handing more cash to bureaucrats hasn't worked here or in the 49 others that spend more than us. Not sure vouchers are the answer, but I'm still willing to give it a try in spite of the author's concerns!

Comments continue below

Michael Brown | 2:16 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Weï¿½ve got to try something, and the other 49 expensive experiments prove that handing cash over to unionized government bureaucrats is also not a wise course. Letï¿½s try vouchers anyway and see what we learn.

Not sure what's going on. I've tried to post this several times and it never shows up. Sorry if it ended up posting multiple times.

Most of us are | 5:52 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Public schooled and we do well. I'm for help for kids in special situations, but mostly we need to concentrate on making what's available to everyone better, Thank you for this great article.

TRK | 6:56 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Public schools served our nation well, but so did covered wagons in their time. Problem is today the covered wagon makers have the political clout to stop development of the automobile. We won't move past our poor to average educational system without fundamental restructuring, and that isn't going to happen with the current crowd in charge. If they want me to vote against vouchers then tell me how they are going to make public education better.

stevo | 7:10 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

But "values" your asking for my money too!

Enough Said | 8:07 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Vouchers are going down!

Anonymous | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

IF someone wants to go to a private school that is there right as long as they pay for it. Even in private schools you do many of the same things you do in public schools.

Homeschools you isolate yourself my problem with them is you think your values are superior why not share them it does hurt socially.

People don't go to work to help clients, teach students, operate on people, or perform other medical services, cut hair, stock shelves and cashier or deliver. They do that but go to serve the community and there fellowmen coworkers, customers and the likd.

That is why we don't grow all our own food, build all our own houses, do all our education, all our medical things. Go to work to do more than the job go to serve fellowmen in many ways.

Public education make it better and help influence the community in school and when you get out.

George | 8:21 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Mr. Gale is demonizing people who believe the current public education is not meeting the needs of a great many students. Would there even be a voucher debate if our schools were doing the job that parents expected? Defeat at the polls will not stop the desire for something better. If the present education estabilshment wants us to go away then LISTEN TO US AND FIX THE PROBLEMS. I personally don't think that will happen because there are a lot of powerful people (UEA among them) who are invested in the current train wreck. Besides, its much easier to simply call the opponents names.

Minnie | 8:23 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

I usually "amen" all that Don Gale has written, but not on this issue. In it's pure state, what Don says about vouchers is basic and ideally correct.
But the comments by Crandle, and Subverting American values are more realistic.
It has been my observation that there has not been enough accountability and vision in the Public School System for the last 50 years.

Julie | 8:24 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Crandle:

And where did you go to school and who paid for it? Did by chance so taxpayers foot the bill for your education.

By all means, lets tear down all of the public schools and send the kids back out into the fields. Who needs the next generation of doctors, scientists, etc? We can all just take our money and go home.

Subverting American Values: Do you even know who Don Gale is. He is one of the most respected editorialist in the valley. For years he worked at KSL (a very conservative organization). You miss one major point. Not everyone who pays taxes is a a parent. We don't have a head tax for education system. If it were just parents paying for education, great, take your money and go elsewhere. But that is not the case. Everyone pays for public education. It is a PUBLIC good. Go back to your basic high school economics class if you need a refresher course on public vs. private goods.

ediddy | 8:31 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Feel good about ourselves. Feel good about anything and everything. Feel good about high fuel prices and energy conservation. Don Gale is for feeling good about it, period. No matter the mediocrity of the masses. Education is not about just feeling good. It is about being competitive in a multitude of fields. That's what, in the end gives us awareness of environmental needs, business goals that improve ALL our lives, science that works bothe ends of the spectrum and the luxury to read ourselves into fantasy and firm values.
Don Gale is a fossil who is entitled to his opinion, but ought not be trotted out as a show horse for the feel good politics of mediocrity and pablum the DN hopes will sway the debate between pro and anti voucher supporters. He is so predictable there is nor reason to waste newsprint. Just print his name and we'll know where he stands, firmly and resoulutely astride the "peace at any cost" fence.

Kevin | 8:41 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

I hear a lot of "let's just try something" coming from the pro voucher group. We're headed from a train wreck if we govern that way. Instead, let's make a plan for improving public schools. Bring in outside consultants if you have to. But keep private schools private.

tired of the misrepresentations | 9:00 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

The attacks and criticisms of our public school system are completely unfounded. We have the best educated population in the history of the world.

Despite the media representations of a system that is falling behind the rest of the world. all we have to do is ask them to try to educate everyone rather than just the elite, and we move back to the top ... by a large margin.

Our schools are not failing. For every story you can tell about a student who failed, I can tell you 100 success stories. We already have funding system in place to address special needs.

Our education system is not perfect, but it is very good. We can make it even better, and we have been constantly improving it. Encouraging and rewarding opting out is not the solution.

PG Suggested | 9:13 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

TRK, I completely agree but vouchers are not the way.

Thank you | 9:36 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Don Gale speaks for our country. Let's all help the schools. The schools do a great job in meeting the needs of all students, from those with disabilities to those with high intellectual capacities, from those with the support of two loving parents to those with the support of one loving parent or grandparent, from those who speak English as a first language to those who are learning English, from those who learned to read at age 4 to those who struggle to learn to read at 10. I applaud all hard working, concerned teachers.

To me, vouchers are elitist. Also, since when are our taxes "our money" to be returned to us. How silly. Whenever government takes "our money," it get divided and spent in various programs. It never returns to us, and if it did it would be much less than it started out to be. As a young family, our children's education cost much more than we were taxed. As grandparents in a higher income, we pay much more than the total our children cost. However, we are helping others become contributing members of society.

Utahn on east coast | 9:40 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Julie is right--it is our obligation as citizens to support and pay for public education for all. (Whether you have children in school or not is irrelevant, just as you must pay for roads with your tax money even if you only ride public transportation.) That said, I'm not sure I'm 100% behind Gale's implication that I am not a good citizen if I do not send my children to public schools. Many of the public schools where I live are places I would not want to send my children. However, I will continue to support these schools with my taxes -- they must only be strengthened, not weakened! -- while sending my children to private schools.

Doug Cornish | 9:41 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

It's this simple. Vouchers will use public money to pay for private education. That's not right.

Joe | 9:44 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

To "tired ...": About a month ago, we read in the papers that 27% of our high school graduates could not even pass a basic competency test. I accept your challenge. I present these 27% and ask you to stack up 100 successes against each one of them.

Cameron | 9:56 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

But aren't US test scores lower than the rest of the world's? Aren't US technology leaders like Steve Jobs complaining about our education system being unable to produce competitive workers?

After 5 decades of complaining about the state of American schools, asking for more funding, and getting exponentially more funding, it seems odd that public schools are now saying that everything's fine.

TRK | 10:24 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Cameron you are absolutely right! We know we have problems competing (not to mention all of the "values" issues). Even our good students are only mediocre in the world. We must do something. Vouchers may not be the best - hopefully it will attract somebodys attention.

Jennifer | 10:29 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Don Gale makes me proud to be an American. Other countries allow only the top-performing students to continue on to higher education. Educating all children has made our country great. As for parents who say they "know best" and who berate the public schools - if all of you know so much about education, why didn't you "choose" the best universities to attend? I'll bet there are VERY FEW, if any, parents who want "choice" who got accepted to this nation's top universities. It's hilarious that these parents screaming for choice were too stupid for the Ivy League to "choose" them. These parents are the very ones who should be thanking God they are American and were given a free education. In many other countries, they wouldn't have been; they aren't smart enough.

Mr. Whitaker | 10:33 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Don Gale,

Your eloquence and depth of perception honor you and all those who truly understand the glory and purpose of this nation. Thank you. The life I have given to the public education system has shown me that those who give, benefit, and those who seek only to take, often find frustration. Imperfections aside, the public education system is better at serving our nation than any agglomeration of private schools could hope to be. The system can be improved, maybe even fixed. The heartfelt wish of nearly all of the professional educations I know is to meet the needs of every student they serve. Those who wish to improve education would do well to recognize the human resources available to the nation and nurture them. Treasure our students, encourage parents to become involved and acknowledge the genuine skill, compassion, and love offered by most professional educators. Public education is our nationï¿½s hope.

Julie | 10:36 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Joe,

Well at least those 27% can grow up to be state legislators.

I say lets make the basic competency test a standard for serving in the State Legislature. (I won't even get started on the need for a basic ethics competency test.)

The fact of the matter is that Utah had one of the highest graduation rates in the Nation, about 15 percentage points above the national average. Our system is not failing. Could it use some improvement, yes. Let's put our efforts at improving a good thing instead of creating a parallel system.

Instereo | 10:50 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Don Gale, you got it right. I'm amazed at all the anger that you stirred up though. It seems simple, Freedom and Justice for all means equal opportunity and public schools are the manifistation of those ideals. Nothing against private schools either. They can be part of the American Dream. But paying someone to attend private schools or giving them an entitlement so they can seperate themselves from the masses and then do it in the name of choice is not American. Unless being American means being greedy, self-serving, and unconcerned about your fellow citizens. I think it's interesting about the arguements for vouchers include attacts on "government" schools as if it's one government that created schools and not hundreds of local communities. No what they call government schools are in reality community schools run by local school boards. To argue against socialism or the other fears brought up in desperation by the voucher proponants smakes in the face of reality that our community schools are as diverse as our communities. They answer to local communities and local tax payers. I'm voting against Referendum 1. I believe in local public schools for all.

Teacher | 11:26 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Don Gale writes opinion pieces. He speaks for himself, not for Utah or America. That is what is great about our nation. We can speak our mind.

My Opinion? I'm as educated on the issues as Don Gale but I see it in an entirely different light. Our current educational system is a grand experiment in Socialism. Socialism is a failure formula. In the case of pubic education it is now failing. Children in our socialized public schools are now academically behind the rest of the industrialized world in mathematics and other subjects. Utah ranks at the 7% level in math, a failing grade in even the most liberal schools. By the time these children graduate it will be too late for them to participate in Don Gale's American Dream as there are a finite jobs in the global workplace for the undereducated.

June | 11:28 a.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Once again Don Gale has told it like it is but in an eloquent way. Thank you, Don.

Geogre | 12:03 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

I see the stupid comparisons are flying again; re: comparing public schools to covered wagons and private, voucher-funded schools to automobiles.

The problem is that no research or studies supports that conclusion. Private schools, on average, do not do as well a public schools, and in fact the worst of the private schools are worse than any individual public school!

Vouchers are all about greed and people wanting to avoid being good citizens. If you don't want to be a true citizen of the USA and support public education, I suggest you go elsewhere. I hear the religious schools in Saudi Arabia are quite effective!

True Conservative | 12:07 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Thank you Don Gale for articulating what I believe with all my heart! And we can make all of our schools better when parents demand of legislators real class size reduction and school districts make sure administrators in all settings go further in listening to parents - they do know their children best. With our unique funding challenges we have no business trying to support both public and private schools. We'll do both half baked. Let's boldly demand better public schools by funding them adequately (get us to at least the middle of the states) and raising parent involvement to new levels. Let's use our innate American goodness to improve on our schools so all benefit. Vote down this Voucher plan and concentrate on improving what we already are committed to support.

Prove It | 12:16 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Teacher,
Where do you get your facts? What do you teach? Do you teach at a private or public school? Those of you who have written opinions, how much time have you spent in a classroom of 30 students in order to come up with your assumptions?

bob | 12:34 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

If the vouchers pass it is only fair to provide a pay out system for those of us who do not have children in public schools or at the very least allow us to designate where our taxes go other than publlic schools. Or we could be realistic and fair and let the people who produce the children pay for the children. Why give these folks another deduction. They already get a break on their taxes, that shoud be enough.

Joe | 12:40 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Julie: You didn't exactly answer the challenge though, did you? When this outlandish claim was challenged, your defense was not to verify the claim but instead to take a slap at our state legislators.

First, that shows a real lack of class. Second, like them or not, they've made the effort do something that you have not.

So, accepting that no better response will be forthcoming, let's move on.

Don Gale wraps himself in the flag and says, in essence, that the American way is to acknowledge that all men are created equal. He extrapolates that to infer that all men must remain equal.

He claims vouchers are anti-social when what he really means is they are anti-socialistic.

He makes outrageous statements that have no foundation:
- "will destroy us"
- "national suicide"
- "not only selfish but naive"

He offered nothing but his opinion to support any of those claims.

He used buzzwords like diversity, responsibility, character, and citizenship.

In short, he is a professional who excels at these techniques. He is an illusionist that makes you believe that there is substance in rhetoric.

And you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

RIchard | 12:41 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

I thought I had heard it all from the anti-voucher crowd...but now vouchers are unAmerican??? Give me a break! (to quote John Stossel)

Like it or not, vouchers would help every parent and student (rich or poor) who is looking for the right fit for education. If the public school is not the best place, then a private school may be a better choice. It is not right that tax money can be used for the wrong fit but not for the right one. That's like your doctor telling you that you should get your appendix out when you have a broken arm because your health insurance covers operations but not casts.

Just like some people excel in sports, there are better students than others. We need to get beyond this "one size fits all" attitude when it comes to education. Our nation will not be great if we tell our most brilliant minds that they must "hold back" so other kids don't feel bad. If we had the same attitude in sports, there would be no professional sports. The best athletes would not have a chance to stand out from the crowd.

Sam | 12:59 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Don Gale's condescension to the voucher supporters is absurd. He sounds like a typical elitist-socialist: All Americans must become equal and itï¿½s our responsibility to force equality of outcomes on all. We may have been created equal, but we cannot enforce equality of outcomes.

Don states: ï¿½The purpose of education is to help find the goodness in each of us ... and in all of us together.ï¿½ It is great for the schools to reinforce positive values, but does anyone think that is what the public schools are doing? Instead they have been going down the path of political correctness, spending less time teaching the 3 Rï¿½s and more time teaching global warming and anti-capitalism.

Also: ï¿½Vouchers build walls instead of bridges.ï¿½ ï¿½We should tolerate privilege, but we should not glorify it.ï¿½ In fact, vouchers do the opposite. With vouchers, many more children have access to the best schools.

The vouchers do not ï¿½takeï¿½ money from public schools. They just use the same money to educate students in a more efficient manner. And leave extra for public schools to boot!

Joe | 1:15 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Prove it: Teacher may get his facts from the same place that Geogre gets his. If you are going to challenge only those who support vouchers, you lose any credibility. All you do is reveal your own prejudices.

TO:"Tired..." | 1:37 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Apparently you need to do more research. American education has slumped and IS NOT on top of the world. Many European countries surpass us.

It has been proven over and over again that throwing more money into education doesn't solve the problems we face. To think otherwise, you are just fooling yourself.

John | 1:48 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Government schools are Anti-American, Don.

They are unconstitutional, and until you show where government is authorized by that document to be in control of our children's education, consider not making such buffoon-like comments as "vouchers are un-American"

What is American, is choice, and the application of our own funds, to educate our own children, as we see fit.

Stealing my money, and wasting it in a government school that does not allow me any input into how things are done, is un-American.

I don't think you even know what America is about in the first place.

Joe | 2:20 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

See what happens when we start to invoke the flag. Government schools are not unconstitutional any more than vouchers are unconstitutional. Federal involvement in education IS unconstitutional in that all powers not specifically invested in the federal government are reserved to the states.

Both sides should avoid wrapping themselves in the flag. It just raises the emotional level to an unhealthy level. People start to accuse others of un-American behavior and we never discuss the pros and cons of the issue. Is that really where we want to be - that anybody who doesn't see ir our way is treasonous? That doesn't do anybody any good at all.

Mark | 4:35 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Why the hatred of the American public education system? Yes, test scores are falling in some subjects. But that may not be the education system's problem, but the problem of parents not pulling their kids away from TV and VIDEO GAMES long enough to learn to read or do math. We may be witnessing the effects of a narcissistic and materialistic culture on families. Many American families have become institutions based on "play", not on work and moral values.

Just think of the warnings in the last General Conference on these very issues. In the last two years, the Brethren have had to plead with young men to pursue an education!

Voucher supports say America's "socialist" schools are failing and compare our students with European countries. I wish they could see what an ironic comparison this is. MOST of the countries (Sweden, France, Germany, etc.) are FAR MORE SOCIALIST THAN WE EVER WILL BE!

America could reform and build the greatest educational system on earth. But vouchers will be a hindrance, not an aid.

John | 5:42 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

I think Don Gale wrote some very thoughtful and enlighting thoughts. Elitism in a society is something we shoud try to avoid. Vouchers and school district splits of East side from the West side wll only increase elitism and the caste system. By the way I am a life long republican, but am very discouraged by the ultra right that seems to have way too much influence. The silent majority needs to speak up (and we will with the voucher vote).

Confused | 10:40 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Wow, I can't tell who is parroting more lies - the pro or anti voucher crowd. I read through this blog, and all I see is a mess of misrepresentations, half truths, and outright lies. Do we really lack the ability have a reasonable, intellectual debate on this issue?

Let's at least start by not quoting outrageous, unsubstantiated facts. Then let's move to giving most educators their due, and end up with "are vouchers really the right way to improve our current education system?" I truly don't know the answer to the question.

I look at what voucher proponents gain, and I'm not really sure what it is. $500 for a rich guy? Is that really going to make a difference in his decision to send his kid to public school? If vouchers are the answer, the amount allocated is not nearly enough to accomplish the task. I honestly think that the number of people who will actually benefit from this law is so small as to make this a complete non issue.

Then I look at the anti voucher crowd and I can't understand what they are afraid of?

But I do know this - Don't listen to Don.

Tom | 11:13 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007

Amen, Don. Finally, someone was brave enough to say exactly what vouchers are: taxpayer supported elitism. You are a drink of cold water in a desert of misinformation and oreo cookies.

Public schools aren't failing, it is the public that is failing. Years of published SAT scores have shown what teachers have always known: the socio-economics of an area predict the "quality" of the school that serves that area. One could swap the faculties of low and high performing schools and test scores probably wouldn't budge. If a private school outperforms a public school it is simply a reflection of the autonomy and selectivity that private schools enjoy.

We have entire industries devoted to keeping our youth entertained and distracted, why should we be surprised that some show little inclination for the hard work of getting an education? But if they want it, they can get it at any public school in Utah.

Throwing money at education? Give me a break! Utahns get more bang for their buck than any state in the nation. We invented "stack them deep and teach them cheap." What teachers and public schools need is MORE support from society, not false assumptions and ill-advised programs.

Retired | 10:14 a.m. Oct. 21, 2007

Tom, I agree completely. Most U.S. students today look at public education as an inconvenience and interruption in their lives. Social events, talking/texting with friends, listening to their mp3 players, and doing whatever they want to do are far more important.

Ann | 2:46 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007

Thank you Don Gale for your voice of reason. If we have so much excess money, why don't we put seat belts on school busses? Some states do.... But we can't do that; it's too costly. Why don't we pay our public school teachers more? We can't do that. Where would we find such funding? Wouldn't it be nice to have a full time librarian at every school? A staffed library adds so much to the school environment. But we can't do that. How could we manage to absorb such an expenditure?....but somehow, somehow we do have plenty of excess money to hand out to parents and their flight plans to abandon the public schools and advance their own personal educational agenda.
Not with my tax dollar....I hope. They should fund their own experiments.

Barbara | 9:00 a.m. Oct. 22, 2007

Thank you Don Gale! You have articulated so well what I have felt about vouchers and have given us all food for thought. I have think there should be some changes made to qualifications for Utah State Legislators:

1. Before you can become a State Legislator, you must spend a minimum of 4 weeks substituting in the public school system; one week of elementary school, two weeks in junior high school, and one week in high school.

2. Of the 4 weeks, you must spend 2 weeks at the beginning of school in August and 2 weeks at the end of school in May; so you can see what it is like to teach 32 students in a 92 degree classroom.

Our legislators are so out of touch with reality that it makes me crazy. The few who have a voice of reason really have no voice because of the majority that rules. Vouchers are not the answer.

The reality is... | 2:15 p.m. Oct. 22, 2007

The reality is that I do not want my tax dollars going to private schools which do not have the same accountability as public schools (who will decide the curriculum? who will decide if students are learning? how will they measure growth and achievement?). I do not want my tax dollars going to pay teachers who are not required to have a teaching certificate or even a background check. I feel that my tax dollars are being utilized effectively in our state's current public education system. Just look at Jordan and Granite School District's national rankings. They are doing their job despite poor funding and large class sizes. If you do not feel that public education is working for your family and you choose to put your children in private schools, remember that is your choice and you need to take responsibility for that decision and pay the tuition. Do not expect to receive private funds. I applaud Gale's editorial. As Americans we all should feel a responsibility for each other, for the advancement of all men and women.

Rich | 8:04 a.m. Oct. 25, 2007

I think Gale has mixed up the role of religion and education.

Here is the problem as I see it: well-meaning and concerned parents are seeing the continuing decline in discipline, teaching of morals and values, and even patriotism in schools. They are seeing an emphasis on "diversity","multi-culturalism","sexual tolerance" and other concepts that many parents resent and object to as they see them as divisive and contrary to the foundations of not only our nation but also that of families. Therefore, they do not want their young children exposed to that. To suggest that they are wrong is in itself wrong for one of the prime duties of parents is to protect their off-spring from potential harm. When violence, drugs, and crime of various nature exists in our public schools with a seeming inability to stop or control it; I am not surprised that good parents want a change. Would Mr. Gale allow his (then) children to be in those environments? I doubt it. And if he couldn't change it, I have a hunch he'd be demanding a voucher for his own children.

Vouchers are not for elites; they are for worried parents!

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