Reader comments
Huntsman to vote for vouchers but won't push Utahns
52 comments | Read story
nightowl | 12:34 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
hmmm, (D) Ralph Becker doesn't seem very well informed. He should not be
reelected.
GDC | 1:08 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
This whole article is so biased in the way it was written it is a shame. Why
even write it, unless it is to sway voters. Just having the title Governor and
at the end having the words Democrat is sending the wrong message. I am very
conservative and Republican as a whole, but I am very much against vouchers.
Shame on the writers of this and the editor for not picking up on the bias.
RaNae` | 2:35 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
If the public schools were doing such a great job, the private schools would not
have a back log of applications to leave public schools. I am voting for the
vouchers and even with flaws, as they proclaim, they are better than what we
have now.
The public schools moneys are being stolen by the administrators saying they are teachers to get double and it has bee proven for years. This needs to stop
The public schools moneys are being stolen by the administrators saying they are teachers to get double and it has bee proven for years. This needs to stop
Comments continue below
Concerned Parent | 7:04 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Seems to me that Gov. Huntsman is not fully on board with the vaoucher program.
If it is going to help our future then why isn't he promoting it more?
re:nightowl | 7:09 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
you present no reasoning behind your comment, you probably ought to go to bed,
sleep helps the thinking process. I have no comment on Becker re-electablity but
I do know that the voucher issue is a non-issue every where else in the country
so why is it one here. It is an issue funded by outside interests who have an
agenda and are willing to support it here.
I am still baffled why the people that puched for charter schools are not happy with them now and insist on privatizing the system if there is no agenda. Charter system is a CHOICE with lots of parental input. Talk to the parents. The only people ,in significant numbers, that will be running to get voucher money will be those already in private schools. You can yell all you want about choice but choice exist with Charters and openenrollment. I as a taxpayer do not want people who think it is "their" money taking to fund their individualistic goals and agendas in private schools, I want to improve and work with the system that benifits the most, let them use their money to fund "their" choice.
I am still baffled why the people that puched for charter schools are not happy with them now and insist on privatizing the system if there is no agenda. Charter system is a CHOICE with lots of parental input. Talk to the parents. The only people ,in significant numbers, that will be running to get voucher money will be those already in private schools. You can yell all you want about choice but choice exist with Charters and openenrollment. I as a taxpayer do not want people who think it is "their" money taking to fund their individualistic goals and agendas in private schools, I want to improve and work with the system that benifits the most, let them use their money to fund "their" choice.
T | 7:50 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Renae, You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. Money stolen
by administrators? Have some evidence before you chime in. Vote for vouchers and
sit back and see what happens to all schools. What a joke!!
MFM | 7:58 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
What are the antis to Referendum afraid of, other than their own narrow
interests? Money will not leave the schools. Parents will not be able to pay
the high tuition rates, and there are no openings for students with the private
school being filled up as they are now. This Referendum is good public policy.
The legislature already voted for it, and the governor signed it into law.
I'm voting for it. Dan Jones....you are wrong in your poll. The state is
pouring money into education, and they won't even acknowledge it.
ED | 8:02 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
If the voucher system is passed, is the dependent deduction on income tax going
to be adjusted. People with children already get a deduction and, in some
cases, a tax credit. It seems unfair to those who don't have minor
children to be be taxed so those with them can attend a private school, and the
people benefiting are already getting a tax break.
randy | 8:14 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
a petition was signed almost over night by parents who didnt/dont want to see
their tax money (education fund or general fund) go to offset private education
how odd that voucher folks say money exists out of several pockets why isnt
there additional money for the educational pocket to try and do more
only 3% of utah school aged students would even benefit from this voucher law - typical utah thinking - once again - the minority is ruling the majority
when the proposed voucher law class size goes down the utah law of FTE for the teachers will go down leaving less teachers to teach and the status quo would remain (oversized classroom size the same or worse off)
talk about the voucher law is pretty much meaningless knowing better thent 120,000+ parents are against it - money coming out of tax payers pockets to pay for something they cant themselves afford -priceless
as for RaNae and her off the wall 'back log of applications' to private schools give me a break, private schools will take your child IF you have the bucks and since you dont i am not interested in being your loan officer
only 3% of utah school aged students would even benefit from this voucher law - typical utah thinking - once again - the minority is ruling the majority
when the proposed voucher law class size goes down the utah law of FTE for the teachers will go down leaving less teachers to teach and the status quo would remain (oversized classroom size the same or worse off)
talk about the voucher law is pretty much meaningless knowing better thent 120,000+ parents are against it - money coming out of tax payers pockets to pay for something they cant themselves afford -priceless
as for RaNae and her off the wall 'back log of applications' to private schools give me a break, private schools will take your child IF you have the bucks and since you dont i am not interested in being your loan officer
N | 8:17 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Thanks Mr. Huntsman for not influencing the rest of us. As if you could. Of
course he is supporting the vouchers has he ever walked inside a public school?!
sob | 8:19 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
what a scam the whole idea of "private schools" is.
if parents would agree to support teachers, when they require performance standards from their students, in writing at the start of the school year, and also spend time with their kids at home each day reinforcing and monitoring what the children learn, they would allow public school teachers to teach and not be behavior enforcers. instead, when johnny acts out in school, or fails to do the work, parents either run to defend little johnny, sometimes threatening the teacher in the process, or can't be bothered. Public school teachers expect the same from their students as do private schools, they just don't have the option of kicking out the trouble makers or, setting back the underachievers because they didn't charge the families an arm and a leg to let the kids attend the school. private schools can say "well parent we just don't want your child here next year unless they do better." i am not surprised huntsman is for vouchers, isn't he one of the richest utah citizens
if parents would agree to support teachers, when they require performance standards from their students, in writing at the start of the school year, and also spend time with their kids at home each day reinforcing and monitoring what the children learn, they would allow public school teachers to teach and not be behavior enforcers. instead, when johnny acts out in school, or fails to do the work, parents either run to defend little johnny, sometimes threatening the teacher in the process, or can't be bothered. Public school teachers expect the same from their students as do private schools, they just don't have the option of kicking out the trouble makers or, setting back the underachievers because they didn't charge the families an arm and a leg to let the kids attend the school. private schools can say "well parent we just don't want your child here next year unless they do better." i am not surprised huntsman is for vouchers, isn't he one of the richest utah citizens
Henry Drummond | 8:30 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I believe RaNae is welcome to use private schools, just don't ask the rest
of us to pay for it when our kids can't go as well. The average cost is
$8,000. Even if you are poor enough to get the $3,000 and you have the Utah
average of 3 children, that is $15,000 to come up with. There isn't a
voucher program in the country that has ever saved money for the public schools.
Its a case of "they choose" and "we loose".
We have the most overcrowded schools in the country and the largest class sizes. I think its time we publicly thanked those who work in our public school system, who get less to work with that anyplace in the country, yet they produce better results that many states who have more money and lower class sizes.
We have the most overcrowded schools in the country and the largest class sizes. I think its time we publicly thanked those who work in our public school system, who get less to work with that anyplace in the country, yet they produce better results that many states who have more money and lower class sizes.
Anonymous | 8:35 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Concerned Parent: The Governor has done a lot to support vouchers. He campaigned
on the idea, he worked with Legislators to arrive at a reasonable bill, he
signed both bills, he supports them everytime he is asked and now he
participated in a press conference yesterday to support them. What kind of role
did you want him to play?
in defense of Ranae | 8:47 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
T: You can start by looking at the salaries of State School Board Members (over
$144,000). That is $40,000 more than even our Governor makes. You should tour
their offices and administration buildings too.
While I think State School board members have the best of intentions and are generally doing a great job with public education, I think everyone streamlines a little more and plans a little better when competition is involved.
While I think State School board members have the best of intentions and are generally doing a great job with public education, I think everyone streamlines a little more and plans a little better when competition is involved.
Actually Yes | 8:50 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
N: at the press conference he talked about his son in public education, and he
was going to Parent Teacher Conference later that day or week.
BH | 9:09 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Governer Huntsman has taken a position that those on both sides of the issue
should be able to respect. However, I can't help but wonder if his
position is nothing more than political posturing.
By saying that he is voting for vouchers, he appears to be on board with the pro crowd. At the same time by saying that he will not campain for vouchers, he will not threaten the position of those against vouchers, who could have their considerable lead eroded by the governer's persuasion. Seems the gov. is trying to abandon ship without rocking the boat.
By saying that he is voting for vouchers, he appears to be on board with the pro crowd. At the same time by saying that he will not campain for vouchers, he will not threaten the position of those against vouchers, who could have their considerable lead eroded by the governer's persuasion. Seems the gov. is trying to abandon ship without rocking the boat.
Lee | 9:08 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
The State of Utah is already providing education for all children, if parents
want to put their children in private schools then the should have to pay for
it. We need to keep tax payer money out of private enterprizes.
The Rich Get Richer | 9:13 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Do vouchers actually benefit those we should be most concerned about? Not one
bit.
Do vouchers benefit the rich? Those getting richer everyday? Of course they do. Why does the Guv support them? As many have pointed out, because he attended private school and doesn't have a clue what the average Utahn faces on a daily basis. I know voucher supporters strongly believe that the average Utahn can afford private school tuition with a $3,000 break, but these are the same people getting richer by the second.
Lets focus a little more on educating those who need it the most, the low-income population. If we focus our efforts on improving the public schools for all, this segment of the population will be helped the most. Instead of only 10% of low-income students attending and completing college in Utah, lets try to push that number above 20% in the next 10 years. This effort all starts with better public schools, not a selective voucher program.
Do vouchers benefit the rich? Those getting richer everyday? Of course they do. Why does the Guv support them? As many have pointed out, because he attended private school and doesn't have a clue what the average Utahn faces on a daily basis. I know voucher supporters strongly believe that the average Utahn can afford private school tuition with a $3,000 break, but these are the same people getting richer by the second.
Lets focus a little more on educating those who need it the most, the low-income population. If we focus our efforts on improving the public schools for all, this segment of the population will be helped the most. Instead of only 10% of low-income students attending and completing college in Utah, lets try to push that number above 20% in the next 10 years. This effort all starts with better public schools, not a selective voucher program.
Y | 9:23 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I don't think state school board members are paid. I could be wrong but I
think you should check your facts.
The Governor has shown his courageous style of leadership by walking down the middle of the road. If he thinks this is a great plan why isn't he encouraging people to vote for Vouchers?
The Governor has shown his courageous style of leadership by walking down the middle of the road. If he thinks this is a great plan why isn't he encouraging people to vote for Vouchers?
The poor get Richer | 9:39 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
The Rich Get Richer:
Have you ever looked at Children First Utah? Private companies have set up a voucher program in Utah that only those that qualify for reduced lunch can use. Average income for these families is less than $30,000 yet they had 2000 applicants for 375 vouchers. I think this is proof that low income families will use vouchers.
Have you ever looked at Children First Utah? Private companies have set up a voucher program in Utah that only those that qualify for reduced lunch can use. Average income for these families is less than $30,000 yet they had 2000 applicants for 375 vouchers. I think this is proof that low income families will use vouchers.
COURAGEOUS????? | 9:40 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Y: You really consider Huntsman's actions "courageous"? I hope
you're not serious.
Anonymous | 9:42 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Y: I cant post a link but google Utahsright. Check their salary.
Reese | 9:42 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
This is simply another entitlement program. We need less, not more of these
programs.
Cut taxes and let the citizenry spend their earned income as they desire.
While were at it, abolish the "dole!"
Cut taxes and let the citizenry spend their earned income as they desire.
While were at it, abolish the "dole!"
Dan Donahoe | 9:43 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I am naive. Dear readers, please explain why Utah is the first state to move so
far on school vouchers.
tongue in Cheek | 9:44 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
RaNae,
The Legislature designated Principals as teachers. They also made lunch staff (they teach nutrition of course)and counselors teachers too. This shrunk the teacher to student ratio in all our kids classes without hiring new teachers.
The sad part--this wasn't a joke. That is actually how the teacher students ratio IS reported.
The Legislature designated Principals as teachers. They also made lunch staff (they teach nutrition of course)and counselors teachers too. This shrunk the teacher to student ratio in all our kids classes without hiring new teachers.
The sad part--this wasn't a joke. That is actually how the teacher students ratio IS reported.
bob | 9:45 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
It seems like the Gov is playing politics when he does not speak out in favor of
his convictions on the vouchers. He does not have much of a problem in speaking
out against a mine owner even while the rescue effort is in progress and he has
only part of the facts. Maybe someone is telling him what is needed to keep him
elected in the future. Be quiet when the poles say and issue is unpopular and
speak out when he can make hay at the expense of a mine owner under fire. I
hate the political game.
Hire the Best! | 9:56 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Why shouldn't taxes go to private enterprises if they accomplish the
original goal better? In many areas, tax money is routinely outsourced to
accomplish the work of government. Public education is ENCUMBERED with many
inefficiencies (as monopolies are) and the very fact that private schools are
not bound by the same shackles makes them attractive options. Many parents and
private educators have a deeper understanding of education than public
educators. And ultimately, parents hold private schools accountable!
trisha | 9:59 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
The only people who will even be able to use these vouchers are the rich. If
they want to send thier kids to private schools because public isnt good enough
let them pay for it by themselves.My daughter is in the 2nd grade and has to be
crammed up in a portable all day. Id rather we put the money into improving our
public system.
Concerned Parent | 10:01 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Anonymous; Supporting and Promoting are two different things. I stated "why
is he not promoting it?", not supporting.
Instereo | 10:18 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Of course the Governor would vote for vouchers, he signed it into law. It
doesn't make vouchers right. What amazes me about this is how people
complain and equate schools with big government, complaining about government
controls and yet when the governor says he's for vouchers and people are
getting a tax credit from the government because of a bill passed by the
government then the government is good. Personally, I don't trust the
motivations of people in government advocating vouchers in the first place. I
definitely don't trust their motivations now during the debate. I believe
in how people have not only the right but the responsibility to call the
government into question when they propose legislation that is not in the best
interest of the people. This was done with the petition for a referendum on
Vouchers. I'm going to trust in the judgment of the people and vote against
vouchers and vote NO on referendum 1. I believe the government in Utah has given
people a very liberal choice in choosing what schools people can send their
children to. I don't believe the government should take my tax dollars to
pay for it.
The Rich Get Richer | 10:23 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
The poor get Richer:
Please read my post one more time. I never claimed that low-income families wouldn't use vouchers. However, most low-income families would not be able to afford private schools even with the $3,000 voucher. And for the 375 low-income students getting the assistance from private companies, what about the other 1,625 that didn't?
If private companies can only support 375 students (or 19%) of low-income students, what happens to the other 1,625 or 80%? Not to mention those low-income parents that have no desire to send their kids or have no clue about the private initiative. So what happens to all these kids? The ones that need the help the most. They go to public schools. How do we help these students? We improve public schools. Yes, that means more teachers, high wages, more resources, etc., for public schools.
I would love to hear from more successful students from low-income backgrounds on this subject. Hearing from those private school benefactors, unless they're low-income, doesn't help the pro-voucher fight.
Please read my post one more time. I never claimed that low-income families wouldn't use vouchers. However, most low-income families would not be able to afford private schools even with the $3,000 voucher. And for the 375 low-income students getting the assistance from private companies, what about the other 1,625 that didn't?
If private companies can only support 375 students (or 19%) of low-income students, what happens to the other 1,625 or 80%? Not to mention those low-income parents that have no desire to send their kids or have no clue about the private initiative. So what happens to all these kids? The ones that need the help the most. They go to public schools. How do we help these students? We improve public schools. Yes, that means more teachers, high wages, more resources, etc., for public schools.
I would love to hear from more successful students from low-income backgrounds on this subject. Hearing from those private school benefactors, unless they're low-income, doesn't help the pro-voucher fight.
The Rich Get Richer | 10:38 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Hire the Best!:
How do private educators and parents have a deeper understanding of education than public educators? If you're going to make these claims, please back them up. I would love to hear your reasoning!
How do private educators and parents have a deeper understanding of education than public educators? If you're going to make these claims, please back them up. I would love to hear your reasoning!
To: Hire the Best | 10:38 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Monopolies are inefficient. Therefore, competition between public and private
schools is good, right?
Competition is fine when there is a level playing field. Unfortunately, that is not the case with vouchers. There are two glaring reasons for this.
First, public schools are saddled with restrictions and accountability standards that private schools simply do not have. Public schools have a limited pool of educators (those that are certified), while private schools can hire whom they will. Public schools are required to accept all students and provide services for them (speech, psychology, transportation, etc.). Private schools have no such responsibility. Public schools are required to administer standardized tests. Private schools are not. etc.
Second, since the voucher program provides almost no discriminating factors for the institution receiving the funds, religious-based schools are eligible. The Utah constitution does not allow for public funding of religious education. We live in a country where freedom of religion is guaranteed. Therefore, is it right that public funds support a religious school? You can answer that question however you will, but the state constitution says, "no."
Competitiion already exists. Feel free to send you kids to private school. Just don't ask taxpayers to fund that choice.
Competition is fine when there is a level playing field. Unfortunately, that is not the case with vouchers. There are two glaring reasons for this.
First, public schools are saddled with restrictions and accountability standards that private schools simply do not have. Public schools have a limited pool of educators (those that are certified), while private schools can hire whom they will. Public schools are required to accept all students and provide services for them (speech, psychology, transportation, etc.). Private schools have no such responsibility. Public schools are required to administer standardized tests. Private schools are not. etc.
Second, since the voucher program provides almost no discriminating factors for the institution receiving the funds, religious-based schools are eligible. The Utah constitution does not allow for public funding of religious education. We live in a country where freedom of religion is guaranteed. Therefore, is it right that public funds support a religious school? You can answer that question however you will, but the state constitution says, "no."
Competitiion already exists. Feel free to send you kids to private school. Just don't ask taxpayers to fund that choice.
sob | 10:42 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
to hire the best
we see how well outsourcing works in such well managed and accountable firms such as
blackwater
halliburton
the only ones who benefit from this kind of outsourcing are the ceo's and stock holders of private industry, just as bush wants to outsource social security so his corporate friend can use it to grow their investment funds until they run it into the ground and bail out just as bush did when he was in "the ooil bizness" doesn't anybody remember eron, what about the funds of all those folks who invested there, wouldn't that have been a great place to outsource.
we see how well outsourcing works in such well managed and accountable firms such as
blackwater
halliburton
the only ones who benefit from this kind of outsourcing are the ceo's and stock holders of private industry, just as bush wants to outsource social security so his corporate friend can use it to grow their investment funds until they run it into the ground and bail out just as bush did when he was in "the ooil bizness" doesn't anybody remember eron, what about the funds of all those folks who invested there, wouldn't that have been a great place to outsource.
anon | 10:44 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Huntsman went to Public schools. Highland High. Never graduated from high
school though!
Public School Teacher | 10:46 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I have a couple concerns with Ref. 1 First, will a parent be required to repay
the voucher if they decided to re-enroll their child in public education? Will
the public school teacher be responsible for teaching that student the skills
required for standardized testing that were not taught in the private school?
Second, the promises made by passing Ref. 1 sound great, but what if those
promises are false? Then what? Remember the promise made by the legislature for
every teacher to receive a $3500 raise? I haven't seen any raise yet and I
am continuing to spend over $300/yr on my students for supplies and incentives.
What I am asking is Who do you trust? I love teaching and want what's best
for my students in order for them to progress and be successful in reaching
their goals.
Cookies crumble | 11:33 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Yea for Hunstman. A true politician and dimplomat. His avoidance of the
Republican voucher sales pitch speaks volumes.
Unspoken at the motivations behind Richard and Linda Eyre's Oreo cookie voucher commercial. Little known is the fact that the couple's children own private schools and Mr. Eyre sells private school curriculum. Do you suppose there's any profitering motivation behind all the money being poured into the pro-voucher commercials?
As was commented above, Gov. Huntsman avoided becoming the Oreo (voucher) poster child. Why should he when we have a U.S. congressman to play the role? Rob Bishop is going to have a hard time winning back his Davis County consituents after selling himself to the anti-public education organization.
Unspoken at the motivations behind Richard and Linda Eyre's Oreo cookie voucher commercial. Little known is the fact that the couple's children own private schools and Mr. Eyre sells private school curriculum. Do you suppose there's any profitering motivation behind all the money being poured into the pro-voucher commercials?
As was commented above, Gov. Huntsman avoided becoming the Oreo (voucher) poster child. Why should he when we have a U.S. congressman to play the role? Rob Bishop is going to have a hard time winning back his Davis County consituents after selling himself to the anti-public education organization.
Hire the Best! | 11:37 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
To The Rich Get Richer
I am a public educator of 15 years (and I love teaching great kids, even though I am offering criticisms of the system). I am intimately familiar with the limited view of the specialist most public educators have. Public educatore are highly trained, but poorly educated in the broad sense. They are experts at SCHOOLING, but not about education. They know their own discipline, somewhat--but really they are just good at managing a difficult task within an unproductive system. Very few teachers or administrators read broadly enough about education to have a meaningful perspective or a deep knowledge of it. They do read trade journals and books in their area of specialty, and go to workshops, but that doesn't do the trick. Once you read a dozen classics in the field of education, your entire perspective changes. Many parents and private schoolers have done this, but they are scoffed at by teachers who consider themselves the experts because they run an efficient classroom.
I am a public educator of 15 years (and I love teaching great kids, even though I am offering criticisms of the system). I am intimately familiar with the limited view of the specialist most public educators have. Public educatore are highly trained, but poorly educated in the broad sense. They are experts at SCHOOLING, but not about education. They know their own discipline, somewhat--but really they are just good at managing a difficult task within an unproductive system. Very few teachers or administrators read broadly enough about education to have a meaningful perspective or a deep knowledge of it. They do read trade journals and books in their area of specialty, and go to workshops, but that doesn't do the trick. Once you read a dozen classics in the field of education, your entire perspective changes. Many parents and private schoolers have done this, but they are scoffed at by teachers who consider themselves the experts because they run an efficient classroom.
WIld Bill | 11:53 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Whoever made the assertion that members of the Utah State Board of Education
make $144,000 are $141,000 in error. Board members receive $3,000 per year.
The poor get richer | 11:56 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
The Rich get Poorer:
"Do vouchers actually benefit those we should be most concerned about? Not one bit."
I reread your post. You said poor kids are not helped, "not one bit." So I showed you that these "poor kids" benefited from a $1200 voucher. Imagine how many more would benefit from a $3000 voucher.
Logic tells us that poor families can't afford private school, but I think people underestimate the desire and innovation of parents when it comes to their children's education--and the success of Childrens First Utah demonstrates that.
"Do vouchers actually benefit those we should be most concerned about? Not one bit."
I reread your post. You said poor kids are not helped, "not one bit." So I showed you that these "poor kids" benefited from a $1200 voucher. Imagine how many more would benefit from a $3000 voucher.
Logic tells us that poor families can't afford private school, but I think people underestimate the desire and innovation of parents when it comes to their children's education--and the success of Childrens First Utah demonstrates that.
Anonymous | 12:09 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
To Hire The Best!
Please don't speak for all public educators. I assume you are speaking only of yourself since you are a publice educator. Point your finger at yourself! Since you put yourself in the group of public educators, I would hate to be a student in your class based on the fact that you said you are an expert on schooling, but not education. It's teachers like you who give public education it's false assumptions!
Please don't speak for all public educators. I assume you are speaking only of yourself since you are a publice educator. Point your finger at yourself! Since you put yourself in the group of public educators, I would hate to be a student in your class based on the fact that you said you are an expert on schooling, but not education. It's teachers like you who give public education it's false assumptions!
Economics | 12:44 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
The question is simple. Which costs more tax dollars?
1. One student in a public school
2. One student voucher
Unless #2 is more, why do we want to perpetuate crazy school policies like:
1. Tenure - Job security regardless of performance
2. Far too many tax paid extracurricular activies
3. Not allowing veterans from the real world teach because they don't have teaching certificates. After all, all they have to offer is 30 years experience.
5. Typical government waste, waste, waste
4. etc. etc. etc.
1. One student in a public school
2. One student voucher
Unless #2 is more, why do we want to perpetuate crazy school policies like:
1. Tenure - Job security regardless of performance
2. Far too many tax paid extracurricular activies
3. Not allowing veterans from the real world teach because they don't have teaching certificates. After all, all they have to offer is 30 years experience.
5. Typical government waste, waste, waste
4. etc. etc. etc.
I was wrong | 12:51 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Wild Bill: You are correct State School Board Members do only make $3000. I was
looking at consultants paid by the State Board of Education that receive
$144,000. My mistake, although you might be interested to know the second
highest paid Utah State employee is Patti Harrington (State School
Superintendent) approx. $180,000. She is the only non-doctor in the top 5. But I
think she does a great job, and probably earns her salary.
But my own error has taken me away from my central point that while public education does a great job, the voucher program will help not hurt this effort. And even the best businesses can improve through increased competition.
But my own error has taken me away from my central point that while public education does a great job, the voucher program will help not hurt this effort. And even the best businesses can improve through increased competition.
The Rich Get Richer | 1:49 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
To The poor get Richer:
You're changing your original argument. You originally argued that low-income students would use the vouchers, if available. I argue that they wouldn't be able to afford them. I don't think it's a problem with trusting my logic here, it's part of my reality. I grew up in a low-income home; private school was never discussed. However, through education I received through public schools and assistance from other initiatives, I was able to attend a highly respected private university. I credit several extremely dedicated and brilliant public school educators and public servants with my success. Vouchers would only serve to undercut the public school system and those involved with it.
Also, I don't believe vouchers, or private schools, would be beneficial to the low-income population as a whole. Privilaged people have a completely different view of the world, and most of the time it doesn't match with reality. We are all Americans, but low-income people live in a completely different world than those with money. Unless you've lived it, it really is hard to understand.
You're changing your original argument. You originally argued that low-income students would use the vouchers, if available. I argue that they wouldn't be able to afford them. I don't think it's a problem with trusting my logic here, it's part of my reality. I grew up in a low-income home; private school was never discussed. However, through education I received through public schools and assistance from other initiatives, I was able to attend a highly respected private university. I credit several extremely dedicated and brilliant public school educators and public servants with my success. Vouchers would only serve to undercut the public school system and those involved with it.
Also, I don't believe vouchers, or private schools, would be beneficial to the low-income population as a whole. Privilaged people have a completely different view of the world, and most of the time it doesn't match with reality. We are all Americans, but low-income people live in a completely different world than those with money. Unless you've lived it, it really is hard to understand.
The Rich Get Richer | 2:00 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Hire the Best!:
I can't begin to thank you enough for your 15 years of service! I admire teachers more than any other professionals! You sound like the type of public school teacher I look up to and admire. I had several public school teachers in elementary, junior high, and high school which I credit with where I am today. Without these quality public schools teachers, I wouldn't be where I am today.
With that being said, I completely respect your opinions. You've been there done that. More than I can say, in respect to educating our future. However, I would like to ask you do try to do one thing. Please fight for those who need it most. Please fight for the low-income students who can't go to private school for a number of reasons. Money isn't the concern here. Public schools need reforming, but they don't need to be abandoned. You sound like an engine for change, so use your efforts to positively change our schools. Initiate change!
Thanks again for your service to our great country and state!
I can't begin to thank you enough for your 15 years of service! I admire teachers more than any other professionals! You sound like the type of public school teacher I look up to and admire. I had several public school teachers in elementary, junior high, and high school which I credit with where I am today. Without these quality public schools teachers, I wouldn't be where I am today.
With that being said, I completely respect your opinions. You've been there done that. More than I can say, in respect to educating our future. However, I would like to ask you do try to do one thing. Please fight for those who need it most. Please fight for the low-income students who can't go to private school for a number of reasons. Money isn't the concern here. Public schools need reforming, but they don't need to be abandoned. You sound like an engine for change, so use your efforts to positively change our schools. Initiate change!
Thanks again for your service to our great country and state!
carol | 2:54 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Hey "I was wrong" compare the state Superintendent's salary to
Utah university/college presidents'--she certainly oversees as complex a
program. She also does not receive the same benefits as other State leaders at
her level--no car, no housing allowance, no special travel or vacation benefits.
She does have a doctorate. Suddenly the playing field is more level?
parent | 4:38 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I think vouchers are about compatition (excuse my spelling, I went to public
school) We've poured money into the school system for years with no
improvements. I did my best to get my kids into the best public schools and
found only one that really helped and listened to me as a parent. My children
are out of school now, but I still support vouchers, maybe somebody elses
children can get a better education than mine did. If the pubic schools
don't have compatition, what reason do they have to change? In 14 years of
sending my children to public school, I have seen no signifant changes.
Parent too | 5:25 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
To the above mentioned parent, if public school was so terrible for your
children, why didn't you enroll them in private education? Could you not
afford it and if not, could you now if you voted for vouchers? As we all know,
parents need to take an active part of their child's education at home
also. Did you volunteer in the public classroom, did you communicate with their
teachers, did you make sure they completed their work, Did you yourself, study
your spelling? I think not! Why don't you own up to the fact that you did
not put forth a full effort in supporting your child's education, let alone
your own, and quit blaming public school for your irresponsiblity. It starts at
home! You think vouchers will solve the problems you had with your children.
It's just a band-aid. By the way, I can spell competition....I studied and
went to public schools!
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 8:36 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Public funds spent at public schools go directly to private entities to purchase
goods and services! They pay teacher salaries, which teachers can then use as
their own funds, donating them to a church or paying tuition at a church school
like BYU. They pay for utilities, for bus fuel, for paper, for textbooks,
computers, and desks. They pay off investment banks like Goldman Sachs for the
bonds that were used to borrow money to build schools. ALL public education
funds go DIRECTLY to private entities. Every one of the entities who gets
public ed funds is making a profit from these transactions! Vouchers will not
change that. Money spent at a private school will also go to pay for teacher
salaries, utilities, fuel, books, paper, and buildings. The only difference
will be that school boards will not manage the schools, and unions will not be
negotiating the employment contracts of the teachers, who must pay union dues.
That is why the boards and the unions oppose vouchers: because THEY will lose
power and money. When parents control funds, they will have more control over
public schools, too. That is more important than actually increasing private
school enrollment.
Target demographic? | 9:34 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
One argument for vouchers is that some students do not fit into public schools
and need another "choice". Another is that we should treat education
like a business. Let me tell you that if I ran a private school, I would expect
a lot of applicants if the vouchers passed. I would also only accept those who
are the best students. This means that I would not want to deal with behavior
and academic problems. I think that those who are struggling in public schools
would be the last ones on the list with all of the voucher applications that are
expected.
Also, about the Oreo demonstration-students come and go all the time from a classroom, its called turnover. These students don't take or leave a pile of money anywhere. A light isn't removed from the classroom and the heat isn't turned down because that student isn't using it anymore. The teacher does not recieve a 1/30 pay cut for teaching one fewer student, nor do any other staff personel. Also, there is no subletting of empty classrooms when students leave the school. The money is spent on bills, salaries, and infrastructure-students are not piles of cash.
Also, about the Oreo demonstration-students come and go all the time from a classroom, its called turnover. These students don't take or leave a pile of money anywhere. A light isn't removed from the classroom and the heat isn't turned down because that student isn't using it anymore. The teacher does not recieve a 1/30 pay cut for teaching one fewer student, nor do any other staff personel. Also, there is no subletting of empty classrooms when students leave the school. The money is spent on bills, salaries, and infrastructure-students are not piles of cash.
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret Morning News
Senator Sheldon Killpack speaks during a press conference regarding vouchers at the Utah State Capitol Oct 17, 2007.
Related content
- Blog: An AmEx/Walmart sale 4:12 p.m.
- U. students plan for brighter SLC 4:01 p.m.
- Scuba diving in Utah 3:51 p.m.
- Conan mocks Orrin Hatch, Mormons 3:47 p.m.
- Blog: Six FB players leaving USU 3:43 p.m.
- Susan Powell notebook seized 3:39 p.m.
- Miller Motorsports gets major race 3:35 p.m.
- N Salt Lake has two vacancies 3:29 p.m.
- Stocks stall as Fed preps to back off 3:27 p.m.
- Little lies to little ones acceptable? 3:17 p.m.
- Josh Powell meets with WVC police
- Will Chambers keep his promise?
- Susan Powell notebook seized
- Star on field, in community
- BYU singers compete in 'Sing Off'
- Boozer plays at an All-Star level
- Jazz miss Harpring's toughness
- Cougar seniors see a new Bronco
- Utah families united by tragedy
- Thanks 'Tonight Show,' 'Big Love'
- Jazz stunned by Timberwolves
114 - Stay the course with our president111
- BYU to wear royal blue uniforms108
- Josh Powell meets with WVC police107
- TV mom gives birth to 19th child106
- Sources: Josh Powell hires attorney100
- Letters: Explaining Palin99
- Letters: 'Liberal conceit'97
- Choir, guests unwrap musical magic88
- Tethering of pets could spur charges86
These days, more than half of adults actually want gift cards, those...
Some forms of beauty are fleeting, fragile as life itself, gone in a...
David Rankin, one of Utah's youngest and ablest astrophotographers has...
Latest comments
The punishment didn't seem very tough to me. So much for HATE CRIMES getting...
"I know what the law is (29USC8) and the ruling of the court. What I said is:...
let the "I am pagan and a victim" rants begin.
Is this the guy that instead of fielding a punt he runs into a Utah player???...
That was hilarious! We need more good natured joking about religion like...
Add me to the list of those who want to see Matt Harpring kept on the FSN...
Houston Cougar, just following the words of everyone's favorite Cougar, Max...
"Assault is assault." Really? Then why no charges against Bell's...
"1:33 p.m." Maybe I should have been clearer and said, "I don't CARE if...
Actually, the problem of gang grafitti has improved considerably since we...
Advertisements