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Lee Benson: Vouchers a win-win, Eyre says
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Brad | 12:56 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
If the bill is so bad, why did the Senate, House and Governor pass it and does
the Governor still support it???
Mr. Jarvis did you work for Liberty Academy. It sounds like you did; so, it also sounds like what you are explaining happened in the past. Mr. Eyre is talking about the future with the Voucher system.
Why shouldn't parents be able to make the choice?(Especially those who are not rich and can't afford currently to send their children to a private school.)
Mr. Jarvis did you work for Liberty Academy. It sounds like you did; so, it also sounds like what you are explaining happened in the past. Mr. Eyre is talking about the future with the Voucher system.
Why shouldn't parents be able to make the choice?(Especially those who are not rich and can't afford currently to send their children to a private school.)
GDC | 3:28 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
I'll tell Brad why most of the politicians are supposingly supporting
vouchers, they are benefiting. A parallel is our tax system. Who can hide
their money while the lower middle class pays for the majority. Mr. Eyre's
fuzzy oreo math does not add up. Such as, who pays for the rest of a poor
persons private school tuition past the $3000. I doubt that I could get much of
a voucher because I am the lower middle class and cannot afford to send my kid
to private school with or without the voucher. Why should Joe taxpayer pay for
a wealthier persons ($500) kid to go to private school? Like any bill, the
vouchers supporters do not explain to the public the realistic math beyond
oreos.
Comments continue below
Chris | 6:42 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Mr. Jarvis, please ,please, PLEASE read the bill, as it was passed. Your
questions will be ansswered. Take the time to educate yourself, as well as your
students.
Janice | 7:15 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Taxing parents for schooling is taxation without representation. When parents
decide that their children need something different than what the schools are
offering their tax money still goes somewhere into the school system.
That's what my taxes tell me. I still pay school tax whether or not I have
children and whether they go to public school or not. So, if a child does not go
to public school and does not get a voucher to fund another type of schooling,
who is pocketing my tax dollars and for what??? I vote vouchers. It seems to
keep my tax dollars a little less under the table than they are at present and
my children will have a better chance at the education I want them to have.
Larry Jones | 7:24 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Steven Jarvis is correct!
The money per student will not stay in the school!
The funding is based on enrollment if enrollment goes down so does funding! Think about it!
The money per student will not stay in the school!
The funding is based on enrollment if enrollment goes down so does funding! Think about it!
Paul Venturella | 7:55 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
The $7000 per student is made up on both fixed and variable costs. The fixed
costs of a school do not go down by removing students...so no money is
"saved" in fixed costs. The school power bill might be an example of
fixed costs. No matter if 30 students are in the classroom or 10 studens, the
classroom still needs heat and light...so that part of the $7,000 is fixed and
does not go down.
I have never heard anyone state what the ACTUAL cost reduction to the school is when students leave. Only a fool would believe that if a student dropped out of a school that school would actually have $7,000 more. If I move out of state and my kid no longer goes to school do the schools total expenses go down $7,000....NO!
I believe the largest part of the money is fixed expenses. As far as class size getting smaller...no way, they just reduce the number of teachers as the student-teacher ratio is fixed...fewer students will mean fewer teachers.
I have never heard anyone state what the ACTUAL cost reduction to the school is when students leave. Only a fool would believe that if a student dropped out of a school that school would actually have $7,000 more. If I move out of state and my kid no longer goes to school do the schools total expenses go down $7,000....NO!
I believe the largest part of the money is fixed expenses. As far as class size getting smaller...no way, they just reduce the number of teachers as the student-teacher ratio is fixed...fewer students will mean fewer teachers.
Marita | 8:48 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
As a teacher, I see there is no simple way to weigh the pros and cons of the
costs, and the media is doing no better than both sides in explaining the big
picture.
BUT here is WHAT'S IMPORTANT:
It's not about dollars.
It's about a few kids in my class every year, who ought to be somewhere else.
We are wasting precious public school dollars and precious time of most kids in any crowded class, trying to treat all kids alike.
Some are way ahead and some are behind.
Vouchers will make a positive step toward better schools, just because some families will be able to get their kid out of my room and let me do a better job with the majority!!
BUT here is WHAT'S IMPORTANT:
It's not about dollars.
It's about a few kids in my class every year, who ought to be somewhere else.
We are wasting precious public school dollars and precious time of most kids in any crowded class, trying to treat all kids alike.
Some are way ahead and some are behind.
Vouchers will make a positive step toward better schools, just because some families will be able to get their kid out of my room and let me do a better job with the majority!!
Instereo | 9:19 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
To me, it's simple. Do I want my taxes to go to the public good or do I
want them to be used as an entitlement to a select few so they can finance a
"choice" they can already make. I want my taxes to go to the public
good which means to public schools. I do not want to finance an experiment in
education that seems to benefit the rich more then the poor (inspite of the
pro-voucher arguements about how the poor will be helped, yea right, but not
into the best private schools only ones that spend less per pupil then public
schools). The legislature passed the bill and the governor signed it because
they didn't care what the people thought. With referendum 1, they are going
to find out what the people think. I'm voting NO on referendum 1 because I
care about public schools and about the whole of our society, not just the
select, elite few. I also don't believe the agenda of Benson or Eyre when
they support vouchers. I don't believe their motives are pure.
Alan Sutton | 9:35 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Here are my thoughts: having 50 different states with 50 different legislatures
gives our country an unusual opportunity to experiment with new laws. Examples
include "no-fault" insurance, a concept that began in Michigan in the
late 1960s, and limited liability companies, a concept adopted by the Wyoming
legislature in the 1980s. Both were experiments by one state's legislature
that have now become common practice in other estates. Various state have also
adopted numberous laws over the years that have proven to be failures. But,
nevertheless, they gave their ideas a try and found out whether the ideas worked
only after trying them. To my knowledge, no other state has ever tried a voucher
system quite like this one. I would like to give it a try to see how it works. I
see no downside to trying it.
Almost a graduate | 9:34 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
I think we need to include home schooled kids in this discussion. They are not
part of the public school system which results in lower class sizes. This is
another form of parental choice. Let's give home schoolers a voucher as
well as incentive to keep their kids at home keeping class sizes down.
Michelle | 10:34 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
I agree. I see no new ideas coming from public ed and the unions. Let's
try it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Math is fuzzy | 11:26 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
According to the state office of education, the state is spending $5,000 per
typical student (special ed cost more) is $5000, not $7000. And putting cookies
in a row still doesn't decreased all of the fixed costs of education -- the
power bill, custodians, etc. And class size will not go down, because the school
only gets funded for the students it has, si expect class size to increase. The
writer who discussed the FTE was right on.
EMH | 11:32 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Mr. Jarvis,
It seems your "Liberty Academy" has already seen the positive sides of vouchers. If you had low enrollment, you have no one to blame but yourself. You obviously weren't a school that people wanted to enroll in. The marketforces worked. Your school was underperforming for what ever reasons, and people didn't come to your school. Isn't that the goal of vouchers? To weed out the bad and keep the good? I have not decided yet on how I will vote. I am waiting for the other side in Friday's column. I have 4 young kids in public school so I am contributing to the overcrowding "problem", and I want real answers which seem hard to come by.
It seems your "Liberty Academy" has already seen the positive sides of vouchers. If you had low enrollment, you have no one to blame but yourself. You obviously weren't a school that people wanted to enroll in. The marketforces worked. Your school was underperforming for what ever reasons, and people didn't come to your school. Isn't that the goal of vouchers? To weed out the bad and keep the good? I have not decided yet on how I will vote. I am waiting for the other side in Friday's column. I have 4 young kids in public school so I am contributing to the overcrowding "problem", and I want real answers which seem hard to come by.
Steven Jarvis | 11:42 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Chris,
If you have been following the Voucher debate for almost a year I have been pretty outspoken against Vouchers. I have read both bills and every main article on the issue in the Trib, DNews and the Daily Herald, and a great deal of the opinion pieces on the subject for well over a year. I have a well-informed opinion and am not one of those paid by out of state interest groups (PCE or any teacher Union which I am not affiliated with). I am a currently unemployed teacher who was laid off because of a budget crises due to low enrollment at Liberty; The school lay-off being a prime example that Eyre's cookie analogy is grossly incorrect in how funding occurs.
I know of the good part of the bill (payment of Vouchers quarterly). Unfortunately for Voucher Supporters I know the bulk of the bunk of the bill as well and have been very active since being laid off informing the Public why the Voucher scheme fails lacking safeguards to do what it has been purported to do.
If you have been following the Voucher debate for almost a year I have been pretty outspoken against Vouchers. I have read both bills and every main article on the issue in the Trib, DNews and the Daily Herald, and a great deal of the opinion pieces on the subject for well over a year. I have a well-informed opinion and am not one of those paid by out of state interest groups (PCE or any teacher Union which I am not affiliated with). I am a currently unemployed teacher who was laid off because of a budget crises due to low enrollment at Liberty; The school lay-off being a prime example that Eyre's cookie analogy is grossly incorrect in how funding occurs.
I know of the good part of the bill (payment of Vouchers quarterly). Unfortunately for Voucher Supporters I know the bulk of the bunk of the bill as well and have been very active since being laid off informing the Public why the Voucher scheme fails lacking safeguards to do what it has been purported to do.
Chris B | 11:45 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Funding issue:
I heard Gov. Huntsman on KSL with Doug Wright state very clearly that the voucher money spent will be replaced back into the school system from the "General Fund". This is going to help our schools. We need to support this. It is not 100% clear what the outcome will be other than smaller class sizes with the same amount of money in that class. One argument that the public schools make is that the private schools have no accountability and are not required to have college educated teachers. No child left behind is a accountability for the public schools and they can not stand it. Also, parents will investigate schools and if the teachers are not qualified they will put them back in public school or "choose" another private school. I am very skeptical why the out of state special interests are pouring so much money into this issue. When has anyone cared about Utah from the East Coast.
I heard Gov. Huntsman on KSL with Doug Wright state very clearly that the voucher money spent will be replaced back into the school system from the "General Fund". This is going to help our schools. We need to support this. It is not 100% clear what the outcome will be other than smaller class sizes with the same amount of money in that class. One argument that the public schools make is that the private schools have no accountability and are not required to have college educated teachers. No child left behind is a accountability for the public schools and they can not stand it. Also, parents will investigate schools and if the teachers are not qualified they will put them back in public school or "choose" another private school. I am very skeptical why the out of state special interests are pouring so much money into this issue. When has anyone cared about Utah from the East Coast.
Train | 11:50 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
My view is that with our current school situation in our state, we can't
afford to take that risk.
In how many situations in the world do you see a situation where there is in untested experimental idea that can possibly be implemented by 51 similar systems and the system that has the highest risk is the one chosen to implement the program? Rarely if ever.
If you modify the course of a train by only an inch and let it run for four years in that direction it will take quite a bit more than an inch to fix the change if you don't like it.
I think before our (broken educational) state gambles with an unproven program we need to have some solid cause and effect research done by states who have no problems.
Use the Charter schools as an example. They were not instituted in Utah until some legitimate cause and effect research was done by states who have much less risk. They were proven to work in those systems, so we decided to follow suit and implement them in our system.
In how many situations in the world do you see a situation where there is in untested experimental idea that can possibly be implemented by 51 similar systems and the system that has the highest risk is the one chosen to implement the program? Rarely if ever.
If you modify the course of a train by only an inch and let it run for four years in that direction it will take quite a bit more than an inch to fix the change if you don't like it.
I think before our (broken educational) state gambles with an unproven program we need to have some solid cause and effect research done by states who have no problems.
Use the Charter schools as an example. They were not instituted in Utah until some legitimate cause and effect research was done by states who have much less risk. They were proven to work in those systems, so we decided to follow suit and implement them in our system.
Steven Jarvis | 11:55 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Michelle,
The out of State lobbyist group that you represent needs to come up with more intelligent design for board posting. Vouchers ventured is a substantial loss compared to staying put with the public system we got. For the greatest gain those funds should be directed toward Public education and fixing problems like over-crowding that are common to an under-funded system. Your group wants our State to fund un-mandated with lack of oversight education because they stand to make billions in Private school development that can only happen if demand is artificially increased by Vouchers.
Alan Sutton,
Your comments were much more meaningful. However Vouchers have been tried with higher level of accountability in other States and cities. Milwaukee despite having more protections against fraud than our Voucher experiment, had quite a bit of fraud and failed Private schools. They had some that met the needs of the students as well. Vouchers in our state have loopholes to accountability that should attract unscrupulous people to prey on the program's weaknesses. We won't catch them with the first audit five years after the school starts. And the school could have come and gone before ever being audited.
Vouchers will hurt.
The out of State lobbyist group that you represent needs to come up with more intelligent design for board posting. Vouchers ventured is a substantial loss compared to staying put with the public system we got. For the greatest gain those funds should be directed toward Public education and fixing problems like over-crowding that are common to an under-funded system. Your group wants our State to fund un-mandated with lack of oversight education because they stand to make billions in Private school development that can only happen if demand is artificially increased by Vouchers.
Alan Sutton,
Your comments were much more meaningful. However Vouchers have been tried with higher level of accountability in other States and cities. Milwaukee despite having more protections against fraud than our Voucher experiment, had quite a bit of fraud and failed Private schools. They had some that met the needs of the students as well. Vouchers in our state have loopholes to accountability that should attract unscrupulous people to prey on the program's weaknesses. We won't catch them with the first audit five years after the school starts. And the school could have come and gone before ever being audited.
Vouchers will hurt.
CT Utahn | 11:56 a.m. Oct. 17, 2007
When $ is tagged to a child, the schools must compete for the child. Right now,
the public schools have an entitlement - they do not have the pressure to fight
for business. When a company is guaranteed customers, the customer service
stops. Vouchers might fix it, the might not � but the
current system is horrible and it is the unions fault. Nothing they say should
have any weight.
The article�s example of colleges/universities is great. Why are public universities competently competing w/ private ones? Because the public universities are not guaranteed any business. They must FIGHT to get students. I like the idea of a free market.
The article�s example of colleges/universities is great. Why are public universities competently competing w/ private ones? Because the public universities are not guaranteed any business. They must FIGHT to get students. I like the idea of a free market.
Steven Jarvis | 12:18 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Brad,
Yes I worked for Liberty and the layoffs did happen in the past--two weeks ago on October 5th. I don't think this is too far in the distant past that any legislator would deprive me of the validity of my argument.
PCE, an out-of-state special interest lobbyist group has been funding candidates in campaign contributions for years slowly getting enough people elected to squeak the bill through by a single vote. If someone contributed to your campaign I am sure you would listen to what it is they wanted, and saw to it that you would continue to get financial help in further elections. That is the prime reason the law barely got on the books. I am sure the total sum of spending for lobbying in this manner far exceeds that spent by the NEA. I actually think the NEA wasted its money, because Voucher Supporters are killing the golden goose themselves between the Sutherland Institute and Eyre's cookies. I would like to keep BOTH interest groups out of the issue.
I don't fault Huntsman for Vouchers though. He actually believes in Vouchers for choice well before he likely accepted contributions.
Yes I worked for Liberty and the layoffs did happen in the past--two weeks ago on October 5th. I don't think this is too far in the distant past that any legislator would deprive me of the validity of my argument.
PCE, an out-of-state special interest lobbyist group has been funding candidates in campaign contributions for years slowly getting enough people elected to squeak the bill through by a single vote. If someone contributed to your campaign I am sure you would listen to what it is they wanted, and saw to it that you would continue to get financial help in further elections. That is the prime reason the law barely got on the books. I am sure the total sum of spending for lobbying in this manner far exceeds that spent by the NEA. I actually think the NEA wasted its money, because Voucher Supporters are killing the golden goose themselves between the Sutherland Institute and Eyre's cookies. I would like to keep BOTH interest groups out of the issue.
I don't fault Huntsman for Vouchers though. He actually believes in Vouchers for choice well before he likely accepted contributions.
Steven Jarvis | 12:37 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Chris,
Having worked in two Charters, I can affirm most parents don't ask about teaching credentials. I had them, but not all at the schools had the same type, and perhaps a few didn't have any (a lot were on the state ARL program so had temporary certification). This is a minimum requirement in Public education and a huge negative facing Private schools. Parents when they think about it will demand trained educators instead of someone who believes they can teach.
You may have also missed that Utah has a huge projected 'surplus' for the current fiscal year in the general and education funds. The money not alloted for kids in Private schools ends up in the surplus not in the school he leaves. Also the way the program is set up, a majority of the Vouchers are going to be acquired by kids who never would go into the Public system in the first place. There were 4,000 applications and a high likelihood that one existed for every kindergarten student starting at participating Voucher schools. As a parent I would not pass up the free money I wasn't planning on for my kids expensive education.
Having worked in two Charters, I can affirm most parents don't ask about teaching credentials. I had them, but not all at the schools had the same type, and perhaps a few didn't have any (a lot were on the state ARL program so had temporary certification). This is a minimum requirement in Public education and a huge negative facing Private schools. Parents when they think about it will demand trained educators instead of someone who believes they can teach.
You may have also missed that Utah has a huge projected 'surplus' for the current fiscal year in the general and education funds. The money not alloted for kids in Private schools ends up in the surplus not in the school he leaves. Also the way the program is set up, a majority of the Vouchers are going to be acquired by kids who never would go into the Public system in the first place. There were 4,000 applications and a high likelihood that one existed for every kindergarten student starting at participating Voucher schools. As a parent I would not pass up the free money I wasn't planning on for my kids expensive education.
Re: Marita | 8:48 a.m. | 12:48 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
"It's not about dollars.
It's about a few kids in my class every year, who ought to be somewhere else."
If those were the kids that would benefit from vouchers, I would vote Yes! But, they won�t necessarily be the ones benefiting. Clearly, they would all have to come from families that can�t quite pay for private education. I doubt that�s the case.
You know who will really benefit from vouchers? Those families who already have kids in private schools and have more kids under 5 years old, who will shortly be attending private school anyway! And these kids don�t leave any cookies in public ed!
It's about a few kids in my class every year, who ought to be somewhere else."
If those were the kids that would benefit from vouchers, I would vote Yes! But, they won�t necessarily be the ones benefiting. Clearly, they would all have to come from families that can�t quite pay for private education. I doubt that�s the case.
You know who will really benefit from vouchers? Those families who already have kids in private schools and have more kids under 5 years old, who will shortly be attending private school anyway! And these kids don�t leave any cookies in public ed!
Steven Jarvis | 12:47 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
CT Utah,
Oh please. In addition to my time in Charter schools I also extensively subbed in JSD. In three years I only heard about the Union spoken once in the lunchroom and never in the classroom, and that was only because people were dropping out and not paying dues.
Your competition argument is faulty. Pitting a Private school that has CHOICE in who to accept will take those that will bring more prestige to the school against the Public school that accepts all comers is akin to running BYU's football team against Bingham High. There is a competition for funds however. The Private system being private should go after private funds or become a fully Public choice and compete for public funds not stealing from the public to give to the private. That way all schools would be accountable to the people that are paying for it.
Also if this is such a great cheap thing for our state, why not let Private enterprise fund this initiative. PCE has spent millions on this already, when they could have funded the whole thing privately to begin with. That shoots the whole Vouchers are noble purpose down.
Oh please. In addition to my time in Charter schools I also extensively subbed in JSD. In three years I only heard about the Union spoken once in the lunchroom and never in the classroom, and that was only because people were dropping out and not paying dues.
Your competition argument is faulty. Pitting a Private school that has CHOICE in who to accept will take those that will bring more prestige to the school against the Public school that accepts all comers is akin to running BYU's football team against Bingham High. There is a competition for funds however. The Private system being private should go after private funds or become a fully Public choice and compete for public funds not stealing from the public to give to the private. That way all schools would be accountable to the people that are paying for it.
Also if this is such a great cheap thing for our state, why not let Private enterprise fund this initiative. PCE has spent millions on this already, when they could have funded the whole thing privately to begin with. That shoots the whole Vouchers are noble purpose down.
Richard says... | 12:58 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
�Now let's say that the fairly wealthy
parents�decides to take their $500
voucher� and send that child to a private school. The class
size drops to 29 and the 6 1/2 cookies that the departing student left behind
are still in that classroom, to spend on more books or materials, or on more pay
for the teacher.�
Richard, if that were really true, wouldn�t you see a greater effort from teachers to root out non performing or even lower performing students from their classroom? Wouldn�t that leave all 7 cookies available for more pay for the teacher? What if the teacher could get 3 non performing kids kicked out of school � could they get a 21 cookie raise?
Richard, if that were really true, wouldn�t you see a greater effort from teachers to root out non performing or even lower performing students from their classroom? Wouldn�t that leave all 7 cookies available for more pay for the teacher? What if the teacher could get 3 non performing kids kicked out of school � could they get a 21 cookie raise?
BYUGrad | 1:02 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
This debate is less about funding because it is so muddy and more about
fundamental policy considerations.
Should education be a function of public entities or private businesses?
Should education be a function of public entities or private businesses?
Mahershalalhashbaz | 1:05 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
THIS IS A COMLICATED ISSUE THAT OUR LEGISLATORS AND GOVERNOR HAVE STUDIED.
IT'S TOO COMPLICATED FOR THE AVERAGE UTAHN WHO DOESN'T WANT TO SPEND
THE TIME RESEARCHING THIS. THAT'S WHY ITS SHAMEFUL IT IS GOING TO BE ON
THE BALLOT. THERE ARE OTHERS BESIDES OUR RELATIVELY CONSERVATIVE LEGISLATORS
WHO HAVE STUDIED THE VOUCHER BILL THOUGH IN DEPTH. THEY ARE THE UTAH DEMOCRAT
PARTY, THE ACLU, THE NAACP, THE UEA AND THE NEA. ALL ARE EXTREMELY LIBERAL. ALL
STRONGLY OPPOSE VOUCHERS. THEY HAVE DONE THIER HOMEWORK SO YOU DON'T HAVE
TOO! GO VOUCHERS!
To Mahershalalhashbaz | 1:29 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Mahershalalhashbaz,
Typing in all caps is considered yelling in electronic speaking. Please type in mixed case or lower case.
Typing in all caps is considered yelling in electronic speaking. Please type in mixed case or lower case.
To Mahershalalhashbaz | 2:42 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Along with the fact that in electronic terms, all caps is rude, it's also
harder to read, so a great deal fewer people will actually know what you have to
say.
Voucher Parent | 2:45 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
I want my children to go to a private school where they wear uniforms, respect
teachers and are taught to be good citizens. Just the opposite of public
schools endorse today. So, gimme my voucher so I can choose to spend my tax
money on my children where I want . The rest of you can mire in the muck that
is public education.
CT Utahn | 2:48 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Steven,
I think a lot of this comes down to the public�s frustration with public schools. It is failing. Competition has always been good � and you are wrong in saying that private schools only want the top students. Many who send their kids to private schools do it for the special needs of their children, needs that the state fails to provide for. Parents should have a choice of where to send their kids, both wealthy and poor. $3,000 (or however much it is) for low-income families would help immensely if they need to go the private route. If there is a market for the �dumb� kids, the private sector will most certainly fill it.
The government fails at pretty much anything it does � why empower them?
I think a lot of this comes down to the public�s frustration with public schools. It is failing. Competition has always been good � and you are wrong in saying that private schools only want the top students. Many who send their kids to private schools do it for the special needs of their children, needs that the state fails to provide for. Parents should have a choice of where to send their kids, both wealthy and poor. $3,000 (or however much it is) for low-income families would help immensely if they need to go the private route. If there is a market for the �dumb� kids, the private sector will most certainly fill it.
The government fails at pretty much anything it does � why empower them?
no vouchers | 3:11 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
It's not just about the rich and the poor, the milk and the cookies, the
$500 and the $7000. It's about common sence. Unfortunatly, there is not
many of it left around any more...
Yes, everyone has freedom of choice, but they should make sure that once they make up their mind they do not change it! I am against vouchers for the same reasons that were mentionned by others previously, but also because I know that lots of private school do not offer as much as extra curricular activity as our public school. And so what do you think is going to happen to all this kids or parents who now see that their dear child cannot take this art class, or this language class, or this other particular music class, and so on at their private school? They will come to the public school and ask to get them register for this one class!! so the public school isn't good enough for the year around , but for one or two class they need, it is just right... I say you cannot have your cake and eat it too!! Choose one or the other.
Yes, everyone has freedom of choice, but they should make sure that once they make up their mind they do not change it! I am against vouchers for the same reasons that were mentionned by others previously, but also because I know that lots of private school do not offer as much as extra curricular activity as our public school. And so what do you think is going to happen to all this kids or parents who now see that their dear child cannot take this art class, or this language class, or this other particular music class, and so on at their private school? They will come to the public school and ask to get them register for this one class!! so the public school isn't good enough for the year around , but for one or two class they need, it is just right... I say you cannot have your cake and eat it too!! Choose one or the other.
guenzo | 3:40 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
The majority (not all, but most) of those who oppose vouchers appear to be
teachers (or related to educators, etc.). In short, people who have a vested
personal interest in keeping as much money in public schools (read: their
salaries) as possible. This is understandable, but too biased. Let's give
the customers of education an opportunity to voice their opinions. There
wouldn't be this level of debate about this issue if the current system was
working. Unfortunately, it is not. And I don't believe the answer is ever
going to be "throw more money at it." On the other hand, money talks.
Schools will have to improve, both public and private, if their income and
salaries depend on it. Also, remember that life is not fair. There is not a one
solution fits all for education. Nevertheless, I personally believe that
vouchers is a step in the right direction...even if it is only a small step.
tongue in Cheek | 4:00 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
CT Utahn,
Some like the previous poster to you want to send their children to Private schools to have the pretty uniforms.
Some like the previous poster to you want to send their children to Private schools to have the pretty uniforms.
jill l. | 4:09 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
I am not a teacher. I have read everything I could get my hands on about
vouchers to get an informed opinion about the issue. Have any of you listened,
on line, to the debate on the House floor or the Senate to hear their arguments?
Vouchers is a feel good idea. An idea non the less that is flaud. Tax dollars
should not be used to fund the private sector. No accountablitity to the
legislature where they get their funding. Public schools are required to have at
least 5 tests a year. Private schools only have one test, and that is only
released to the parents of students. We should be investing in public schools
and charter schools. This is where we need to reduce class sizes and support a
system that provides every child a education, regardless of disability,
background, ethnicity. Unlike private schools that can restrict. Of course
private schools do wonders, have you looked at the class sizes. Public schools
desire the same chance.Our tax dollars should go to improve our exisiting
schools instead of finding a small fix that is not accoutable for our dollars.
Steven Jarvis | 4:18 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
CT Utahn,
Unless you just clicked on the Voucher debate, you will find that those who rail against the Public school system are very much in the minority. The polls show a high likelihood Vouchers are going to be erased at the polls next month. So I really don't see what you are saying to be universally true.
Removing Vouchers in no way denies a parent's right of choice where to educate their child. You have a plethora of options under the public system, and you have the right to educate your child at home or any Private school that accepts your child.
Private schools as they are in Utah do seek the best children through admittance requirements like test scores and grade reports before a child can be accepted. They do turn away paying customers and have not been having a difficult time keeping the schools full because the demand exceeds the supply at our best Private schools.
Inferior Private schools will open with Vouchers. Yes, those will take money. They won't provide much of an education and will eventually fail taking tax money and leaving a child worse off than when they entered. That price is too high.
Unless you just clicked on the Voucher debate, you will find that those who rail against the Public school system are very much in the minority. The polls show a high likelihood Vouchers are going to be erased at the polls next month. So I really don't see what you are saying to be universally true.
Removing Vouchers in no way denies a parent's right of choice where to educate their child. You have a plethora of options under the public system, and you have the right to educate your child at home or any Private school that accepts your child.
Private schools as they are in Utah do seek the best children through admittance requirements like test scores and grade reports before a child can be accepted. They do turn away paying customers and have not been having a difficult time keeping the schools full because the demand exceeds the supply at our best Private schools.
Inferior Private schools will open with Vouchers. Yes, those will take money. They won't provide much of an education and will eventually fail taking tax money and leaving a child worse off than when they entered. That price is too high.
Steven Jarvis | 4:27 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Guenzo,
How much is PCE paying you to post? I have read your same post dozens of times and your language gives away a common authorship despite the new name given each time. At least your attack wasn't specific to the 'union' this time.
Parents have a vested interest in their children whether they be an educator or not. This is why the Referendum is sure to pull Vouchers from off the books. The PTA, a parent organization that exists in Utah's public school system, was instrumental in collecting the votes required to put the Voucher program on hold till the Voters have their say.
How much is PCE paying you to post? I have read your same post dozens of times and your language gives away a common authorship despite the new name given each time. At least your attack wasn't specific to the 'union' this time.
Parents have a vested interest in their children whether they be an educator or not. This is why the Referendum is sure to pull Vouchers from off the books. The PTA, a parent organization that exists in Utah's public school system, was instrumental in collecting the votes required to put the Voucher program on hold till the Voters have their say.
RE: guenzo | 4:43 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Your post is a little far fetched!
The latest polls show that 60% of voters oppose vouchers. Do you really think that most of that 60% are teachers or related to teachers?
Then you claim that we should give the �customers of education� an opportunity to voice their opinion. Apparently, from your viewpoint, this should preclude anyone who is related to a teacher because they�re biased � even it they are �customers of education�.
Nothing biased about that!
The latest polls show that 60% of voters oppose vouchers. Do you really think that most of that 60% are teachers or related to teachers?
Then you claim that we should give the �customers of education� an opportunity to voice their opinion. Apparently, from your viewpoint, this should preclude anyone who is related to a teacher because they�re biased � even it they are �customers of education�.
Nothing biased about that!
Re: Voucher Parent | 4:51 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
�I want my children to go to a private school where they
wear uniforms, respect teachers and are taught to be good citizens. Just the
opposite of public schools endorse today.�
Yah, the last time I checked, it was public schools that endorsed boys dressing like hoodlums and girls to show as much skin as possible. It was public schools that endorsed kids to disrespect teachers (and all adults for that matter). And it was public schools that encourage kids to refuse to be good citizens. Yep we�d have an excellent generation of kids that we could be proud of, if it weren�t for those darn public schools.
Yah, the last time I checked, it was public schools that endorsed boys dressing like hoodlums and girls to show as much skin as possible. It was public schools that endorsed kids to disrespect teachers (and all adults for that matter). And it was public schools that encourage kids to refuse to be good citizens. Yep we�d have an excellent generation of kids that we could be proud of, if it weren�t for those darn public schools.
Accountabilty is there!! | 6:20 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
To Jill I and others on the acoountability train: Have you taken the time to
read the amendement to this bill? It DOES contain the accountability you are
crying for.
Once again I will plead with all of those who plan to vote. EDUCATE YOURSELF!!! Do not vote on emotion use your public educated brains and do the research.
Once again I will plead with all of those who plan to vote. EDUCATE YOURSELF!!! Do not vote on emotion use your public educated brains and do the research.
Steven Jarvis | 7:01 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
The accountability that was included in the amended bill is equal to hiring a
felon on a prison release program to be the sole night guard at a bank. It is
highly dangerous with the number of expected Private schools to hit the state if
we pass Vouchers.
They did require a background check to hopefully catch pedophiles or former crooks, but lacked any teaching credentials requirements to ensure that the child learns from someone that has met the minimum State requirement to be an educator. The minimum! The minimum requirement of federal and state laws regarding education has also been waived. In fact the minimum seems to be completely waived in every sense that could be remotely defined as accountability.
Most condemning is the first audit happens after five years. Are we asking for more fraud in Utah? Five years without any proof of education being taught (the organization purporting to be a private school could easily manipulate a test results of the one required norm-referenced test)? How can anyone call that accountability?
They did require a background check to hopefully catch pedophiles or former crooks, but lacked any teaching credentials requirements to ensure that the child learns from someone that has met the minimum State requirement to be an educator. The minimum! The minimum requirement of federal and state laws regarding education has also been waived. In fact the minimum seems to be completely waived in every sense that could be remotely defined as accountability.
Most condemning is the first audit happens after five years. Are we asking for more fraud in Utah? Five years without any proof of education being taught (the organization purporting to be a private school could easily manipulate a test results of the one required norm-referenced test)? How can anyone call that accountability?
Question | 7:30 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
Is Eyre pronounced err, as in 'to err is human?', or is it I R?
Teacher/Mom | 10:45 p.m. Oct. 17, 2007
The wpu is approximately $5300/student. We are 51st in the nation -- LAST -- in
funding our public education system. Most definitely something in which to be
proud? Yet, somehow our students seem to be doing remarkably well on the
national tests (the best "bang for the buck"). Our state's
educators appear to be Houdinis when it comes to stretching tax dollars to get
the most from their students. The reality is that teachers are subsidizing the
gap between money allotted, and that which is needed. Our legislators and
residents should be ashamed.
How is it that our legislators cannot find the money to fully fund one school system, yet can pull a rabbit out of the hat and fund a second school system (vouchers)? Shouldn't the system that is educating the majority of our children be fully funded before we experiment with vouchers?
I might support a restricted voucher program IF the public education system is fully funded FIRST. We owe it to our children to help them create a solid foundation of learning for their school years and life.
(The values we indoctrinate into your students' minds? Community of Caring: Respect, Caring, Family, Responsibility.)
How is it that our legislators cannot find the money to fully fund one school system, yet can pull a rabbit out of the hat and fund a second school system (vouchers)? Shouldn't the system that is educating the majority of our children be fully funded before we experiment with vouchers?
I might support a restricted voucher program IF the public education system is fully funded FIRST. We owe it to our children to help them create a solid foundation of learning for their school years and life.
(The values we indoctrinate into your students' minds? Community of Caring: Respect, Caring, Family, Responsibility.)
Guenzo | 9:52 a.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I have never posted before, but it is good to know that there are many others
who are thinking along the same lines.
I truly am sorry that you lost your job Steven. However, I think our different backgrounds are giving way to too much personal and emotional involvement in this issue.
The bottom line is that we ALL want was is best for our children. It is ok for each of us to have differing opinions regarding how best to educate them.
For me, I would prefer to have a greater say about which school my child attends. It is easy to say that the current system is flexible in that regard, but unless you have actually tried to have your child enrolled in a different school other than the one whose boundaries you live in, you have no idea of the roadblocks that are placed in your way. The status quo is too cumbersome.
However you vote on this issue, it is a personal choice. Please don't critize others for how they desire to educate their children. One size does not fit all.
I truly am sorry that you lost your job Steven. However, I think our different backgrounds are giving way to too much personal and emotional involvement in this issue.
The bottom line is that we ALL want was is best for our children. It is ok for each of us to have differing opinions regarding how best to educate them.
For me, I would prefer to have a greater say about which school my child attends. It is easy to say that the current system is flexible in that regard, but unless you have actually tried to have your child enrolled in a different school other than the one whose boundaries you live in, you have no idea of the roadblocks that are placed in your way. The status quo is too cumbersome.
However you vote on this issue, it is a personal choice. Please don't critize others for how they desire to educate their children. One size does not fit all.
SarahS | 1:11 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
The Eyre's should read the bill. Those oreo cookies stay in the classroom
for the first 5 years after the bill takes effect. Then those cookies go
(where?). Basing the whole argument for supporting vouchers on a part of the
law that will dissappear after 5 years seems like a bad idea to me.
JeanLouise | 2:17 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I'm sorry, but as soon as I saw the Eyres stacking those Oreos in that
cheesy, oversimplified way I realized how desperate the pro-voucher forces must
be.
The Eyres can write all the happy family books they want, but their influence in Utah politics is non-existent. Even the Republican party in Utah -- juggernaut that it is -- is embarrassed by Richard Eyre. They don't like to officially "claim" him. He's out of his league when acting as some sort of voucher expert. Really.
And I'm adamantly against vouchers of any kind. Utahns won't buy into the lies and desires of a few extreme educational isolationists on this deal. We've got a fine tradition of public ed, dating back to Brigham Young. People know that overall, our system is a good one. Let's improve what fairly minor problems we have in public ed now instead of robbing from it to please a few alarmists.
The Eyres can write all the happy family books they want, but their influence in Utah politics is non-existent. Even the Republican party in Utah -- juggernaut that it is -- is embarrassed by Richard Eyre. They don't like to officially "claim" him. He's out of his league when acting as some sort of voucher expert. Really.
And I'm adamantly against vouchers of any kind. Utahns won't buy into the lies and desires of a few extreme educational isolationists on this deal. We've got a fine tradition of public ed, dating back to Brigham Young. People know that overall, our system is a good one. Let's improve what fairly minor problems we have in public ed now instead of robbing from it to please a few alarmists.
Paige | 3:23 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
Who knows whether vouchers will pass or not. Who knows for sure whether is
would help or hurt schools or parents or kids. I do think it's great that
the lively debate over vouchers is helping people to think more about the issues
in our state regarding education. I personally don't think vouchers will
pass - but I hope that the debates that have resulted from putting them on the
ballot will result in further exploration of how we can improve our education
system in Utah. I'd love to see more emphasis on implementing or expanding
low-cost or no-cost solutions with proven results - magnet schools, charter
schools, parental involvement schools, etc. The answers are out there!
ann | 4:22 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I'd vote against vouchers based on the commercial alone. Talk about
patronizing . . .
DR | 8:11 p.m. Oct. 18, 2007
I will be voting against the vouchers. I know that my childs class sizes would
not go down. Last year we were going to start the year out with classes in the
20's. The week before school started a close by charter school opened up
more spots which in turn took kids away from our public school. Guess what
happend we lost two teacher's because of the student to teacher ratio and
our classes were bigger. 36 kids in a 4th grade class! Unless they have changed
the ratio magically I know for a fact it would not reduce class sizes it's
been proven to me.The whole time of course the district guys were blaming the
principal he overhired. The legislators were to blam. Blah Blah Blah. I do wish
as many people who debate this issue would spend half that time helping in their
child's school. Regaurdless of what school it was. Imagine what a
difference that would make. There are too many questions that cant be clearly
answered. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Why Not Let Public Schools Fail | 12:38 p.m. Oct. 21, 2007
The debate over this issue is ridiculous. I've never seen a bunch of
misled government supporters. Folks, look around. Companies leaving, dollar is
so low, huge deficits, illegals overruning the country, a NY governor who wants
to legalize illegals...Don't you see?? We've had 30 years of
mediocrity at best in public education! Our citizenry is uneducated and it is
not due to private schools! The public SYSTEM is broke and broke. The only way
to fix it is to create a hugely competitive environment because competition
works for the customer..in this case kids and parents. Why should the most
important part of our educational system be exempt from competition..It should
not be. I'm voting for VOUCHERS..to fix the system and to help KIDS not
the Government School.
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When a child chooses not to attend a Public school, not a single dollar goes to that school. We have such set costs that if enrollment dips under a certain number of students, schools must cut FTE (Full Time Educators) in order to be fiscally solvent which happens to be required by State Law.
Even in the Eyre commercial, Mrs. Eyre mentioned how the seven Oreo cookies were not enough. If they fully realized that not a single cookie remained in the Public school, and as a few students pull out of lower enrollment schools that classes will be required by law to be doubled up, then they might be whistling a different tune.
A real Utah example is Liberty Academy. Our enrollment was way short and our budget required extensive cuts. If the cookies really remained at the school, I and fourteen others would be teaching small class sizes of ten to fifteen students. Our system isn't funded so simply as the Oreo cookie analogy, and we need realistic fixes to improve funding.