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Heated voucher battle turns ugly with fear of the devil thrown in
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Phil | 9:34 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
7000 cost to educate one kid for one year. Wow, when my parents paid for me to
go to school they did not pay any where to that amount even when you figure
inflation. Tuff question, some parents want choice, some parents are just
materialistic, I mean most. Some parents want their kids to go to school where
the government dosn't have control, this could lead to the end of that.
UEA just wants a monopoly.
Phil | 9:36 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Utah has the highest tax burden per person than any other state. Utah has the
fewest percentage of children going to private school. GO UTAH GO.
Skim a little off the top | 9:51 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers have nothing to do with quality of education or school choice. Those
are sham code words. It is a tax break for the rich. NOBODY will benefit from a
voucher who isn't already sending his/her kid to a private school.
It's called Hegemony. Look it up. Those who understand it will employ it
and will deny it's existence. Those who don't will be victimized by
it.
Comments continue below
Parent | 9:55 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
If I remember Mormon Doctrine correctly wasn't it Satan's plan that
wouldn't have provided us with the ability to choose for ourselves?
Personally I'm for choices in my children's education - and that means a yes on the vouchers issue.
Personally I'm for choices in my children's education - and that means a yes on the vouchers issue.
Wake up! | 10:55 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I think that both sides of this issue are wrong. Public Schools have long had
the monopoly over our children's education. This monopoly has been
enforced through taxation. Therefore, I am forced to pay for your child's
education (your responsibility) while you take a hefty tax refund. On this
point I can see why voucher supporters are doing what they are doing. However,
in principle, they are attempting to do exactly what the public schools have
always done: Take your money by force to further their personal agenda.
Wake up people!
We should stop supporting theft in the name of education. How long before government will regulate the private schools that participate in the voucher program? Where is you "choice" then?
Wake up people!
We should stop supporting theft in the name of education. How long before government will regulate the private schools that participate in the voucher program? Where is you "choice" then?
Brian | 11:23 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
What are anti-voucher people so afraid of? If vouchers are such a bad idea,
apparently inspired of the devil, it will soon be manifest. But the NEA and the
UEA cannot take the chance of losing a monopoly. Even if it passed and and was
a wild success, the NEA would still say that it somehow hurts children. If you
always do what you've always done, you'll always be what you've
always been. Embrace change. Vouchers aren't all that radical.
could it be SATAN | 11:44 p.m. Oct. 9, 2007
As I read the article I was thinking of Dana Carvey as the church lady saying
"could it be, I don't know, SATANNN" lol you have got to be
kidding me. You would think Democrats would be hopping on the bandwagon of
choice, choice seems to be the main issue when it comes to abortion, but
apparantly where your child goes to school is different, somehow?
Jason Bourne | 5:21 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
We have a failing public school system which continues to suck down more and
more money while delivering less in terms of well educated graduates.
We continue to fall behind the rest of the world in both the quality of our educational output and the quantity.
Tanya Clay House for the American Way said, "We've never seen a shred of credible evidence that shows school vouchers actually help students learn.
But lets ask the question another way, speaking of those same shreds of evidence, we've not seen many that point to those now in charge of that public school system having the ability to turn that around. In fact, there seems to be more evidence than not that they're incapable of doing so.
So the question becomes how competition could be any worse than monopoly? How could allowing the consumer of the education product to choose that which they find to best fill their own children�s needs be any worse than the arbitrary standards and needs of the monopoly?
From the side of the political spectrum which claims to be for "choice" this should be an issue for which they are fighting for the choice vouchers bring, not against.
We continue to fall behind the rest of the world in both the quality of our educational output and the quantity.
Tanya Clay House for the American Way said, "We've never seen a shred of credible evidence that shows school vouchers actually help students learn.
But lets ask the question another way, speaking of those same shreds of evidence, we've not seen many that point to those now in charge of that public school system having the ability to turn that around. In fact, there seems to be more evidence than not that they're incapable of doing so.
So the question becomes how competition could be any worse than monopoly? How could allowing the consumer of the education product to choose that which they find to best fill their own children�s needs be any worse than the arbitrary standards and needs of the monopoly?
From the side of the political spectrum which claims to be for "choice" this should be an issue for which they are fighting for the choice vouchers bring, not against.
BIoHaz | 7:39 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Jason (and anyone else with the same idea)
Please back up the following with FACT!
"We have a failing public school system..."
Please, PLEASE list your SOURCE for this blanket statement by pointing to schools in UTAH that are failing. As I said before, there are indeed schools and school systems in other parts of the country where this statement may fit. But absolutely no one has provided a shred of evidence to support this in UTAH! If you cannot back up your supposed facts with a VALID source, then don't expect anyone to believe your drivel!
Please back up the following with FACT!
"We have a failing public school system..."
Please, PLEASE list your SOURCE for this blanket statement by pointing to schools in UTAH that are failing. As I said before, there are indeed schools and school systems in other parts of the country where this statement may fit. But absolutely no one has provided a shred of evidence to support this in UTAH! If you cannot back up your supposed facts with a VALID source, then don't expect anyone to believe your drivel!
Another Parent | 8:55 a.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Parent | 9:55 p.m.,
It is also Mormon Doctrine to "get as much education as possible". I suggest you resume that quest.
It is also Mormon Doctrine to "get as much education as possible". I suggest you resume that quest.
Anonymous | 12:49 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
BloHaz
I have had 25 years experience in dealing with teachers, parents, and administrators. Ten years within the public classroom itself. I do not speak in the same context of Hannity or Limbaugh; I speak from experience.
But if you want facts which you may accept, look up test scores for Utah schools or teacher/student ratios. Some of the numbers are "acceptable" some are not.
But you missed my main point. It is the lack of instillment of basic values by SOME parents which have caused a decrease in the quality of public education. If we, as educators and parents, want to see an improvement in our children and students within a public school setting, those values need to be taught at home. Yes, I do realize there are other factors, but this would be a good beginning.
If you want me to provide "evidence" towards that end, why don't you spend some time in a public classroom and then in a classroom where good values are able to be reinforced.
I have had 25 years experience in dealing with teachers, parents, and administrators. Ten years within the public classroom itself. I do not speak in the same context of Hannity or Limbaugh; I speak from experience.
But if you want facts which you may accept, look up test scores for Utah schools or teacher/student ratios. Some of the numbers are "acceptable" some are not.
But you missed my main point. It is the lack of instillment of basic values by SOME parents which have caused a decrease in the quality of public education. If we, as educators and parents, want to see an improvement in our children and students within a public school setting, those values need to be taught at home. Yes, I do realize there are other factors, but this would be a good beginning.
If you want me to provide "evidence" towards that end, why don't you spend some time in a public classroom and then in a classroom where good values are able to be reinforced.
Dave | 1:23 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Re: Anonymous | 12:49 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Excellent point!
Excellent point!
Anonymous | 1:44 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Jason Bourne paid lobbyist,
Businessmen do not make the best schools because they often lack the basic skills understanding children's needs. How would Donald Trump handle a sleep deprived five-year old child in a morning kindergarten class? What is he going to do, fire them?
I tend to think a trained professional teacher is a better choice teaching than an untrained one, even if a few people are crazy enough to think otherwise.
And quit with the monopoly argument already. It is tired and has no merit in Utah. I can enroll my child in any school or even home-school them if I want to. A monopoly is something like Walmart that uses unfair business practices to wipe out competitors. The Public school system hasn't wiped out too many Private schools in Utah.
Businessmen do not make the best schools because they often lack the basic skills understanding children's needs. How would Donald Trump handle a sleep deprived five-year old child in a morning kindergarten class? What is he going to do, fire them?
I tend to think a trained professional teacher is a better choice teaching than an untrained one, even if a few people are crazy enough to think otherwise.
And quit with the monopoly argument already. It is tired and has no merit in Utah. I can enroll my child in any school or even home-school them if I want to. A monopoly is something like Walmart that uses unfair business practices to wipe out competitors. The Public school system hasn't wiped out too many Private schools in Utah.
BioHaz | 2:50 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Anonymous (please use a name),
It is you who missed MY point. I agree whole-heartedly with your points about parental involvement and the lack of it leading to a decay of student achievement. However, If you actually read what I posted my problem was with blanket, talking-point like statements like, "We have a failing public school system" and "Public schools are in crisis". According to whom? If you want to make such assertions, be my guest, but don't be surprised when I ask you to prove it! You also said I should spend time in a public classroom. I do that every day! As a teacher of 11 years and working in 3 different districts, I am intimately familiar with what works and doesn't work with public schools. People both in and out of public ed. often state what they THINK is the problem or solution, but very rarely come up with any thing other than vague ideas. All I ask is if you label a school as "failing" or "excellent" back up your position. I am sure you are a wonderful person, but until you prove your points with REAL DATA, don't get upset if it is questioned.
It is you who missed MY point. I agree whole-heartedly with your points about parental involvement and the lack of it leading to a decay of student achievement. However, If you actually read what I posted my problem was with blanket, talking-point like statements like, "We have a failing public school system" and "Public schools are in crisis". According to whom? If you want to make such assertions, be my guest, but don't be surprised when I ask you to prove it! You also said I should spend time in a public classroom. I do that every day! As a teacher of 11 years and working in 3 different districts, I am intimately familiar with what works and doesn't work with public schools. People both in and out of public ed. often state what they THINK is the problem or solution, but very rarely come up with any thing other than vague ideas. All I ask is if you label a school as "failing" or "excellent" back up your position. I am sure you are a wonderful person, but until you prove your points with REAL DATA, don't get upset if it is questioned.
Bob L | 7:37 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
I guess this explains why the PTA lady was at my local LDS wardhouse trying to
collect referendum signatures.
Monkey Brains | 9:50 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
The PTA is such a heinous liberal organization. How dare they stand in the way
of parent's choice! Who do they think they are? Parents should be
deciding this not the liberal PTA!!!
:P
:P
Momof5 | 10:54 p.m. Oct. 10, 2007
Any organization whose motto is "Every Child, One Voice" scares me.
Why should every child get a collective voice, and that voice is the experts at
the PTA? Even though I'm not sold on the idea of vouchers, I'm very
much for the idea of school choice because the voice for each child should be
the voice of the parent! So I'll vote yes.
Historically, early church leaders were appalled at the idea of a free public school system. They knew it would be a godless place where gospel doctrine would not be taught. The church had a whole school system in place - it wasn't free, but if you couldn't afford it you could work for it. The leaders had great concerns over people getting a "free" education, as it wouldn't be valued. However as free education began to come to town (such as through protestant schools), the LDS church members began to send their children there because it was free! The members didn't follow the prophet's counsel, so the church schools eventually disappeared, and in order to gain statehood, the Utah constitution included a public school system.
It's well documented. You can find quotes from the prophets.
Historically, early church leaders were appalled at the idea of a free public school system. They knew it would be a godless place where gospel doctrine would not be taught. The church had a whole school system in place - it wasn't free, but if you couldn't afford it you could work for it. The leaders had great concerns over people getting a "free" education, as it wouldn't be valued. However as free education began to come to town (such as through protestant schools), the LDS church members began to send their children there because it was free! The members didn't follow the prophet's counsel, so the church schools eventually disappeared, and in order to gain statehood, the Utah constitution included a public school system.
It's well documented. You can find quotes from the prophets.
Anonymous | 10:20 a.m. Oct. 11, 2007
Mom of 5,
We are supposed to follow living prophets. I don't recall anyone from the pulpit last weekend saying a word for or against Vouchers. I do recall hearing before each election that we should study the issues and candidates and make a choice.
I have done that with Vouchers. Vouchers are bad for all but a select few. I am voting against vouchers.
We are supposed to follow living prophets. I don't recall anyone from the pulpit last weekend saying a word for or against Vouchers. I do recall hearing before each election that we should study the issues and candidates and make a choice.
I have done that with Vouchers. Vouchers are bad for all but a select few. I am voting against vouchers.
The Deseret Spectacle | 2:07 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
So the notion that she was, indeed, employing dark humor has been entirely
dismissed in this forum?
Personally, I find that explanation entirely believable, especially in a state where religion is being capitalized on more and more by the Republican party. Some of them use it as a tool, some of them really believe it, such as when Republican Don Larsen linked illegal immigration to Satan? Or how about when Republican John Jacob blamed Satan for his flagging campaign?
Republicans have been trading on Mormonism in this state for so long that for those of us who don't buy into it, it is black humor. Here is Larsen's schpiel, in case you missed it:
"In order for Satan to establish his 'New World Order' and destroy the freedom of all people as predicted in the Scriptures, he must first destroy the U.S.," his resolution states. "The mostly quiet and unspectacular invasion of illegal immigrants does not focus the attention of the nations the way open warfare does, but is all the more insidious for its stealth and innocuousness."
Yikes.
DS
Personally, I find that explanation entirely believable, especially in a state where religion is being capitalized on more and more by the Republican party. Some of them use it as a tool, some of them really believe it, such as when Republican Don Larsen linked illegal immigration to Satan? Or how about when Republican John Jacob blamed Satan for his flagging campaign?
Republicans have been trading on Mormonism in this state for so long that for those of us who don't buy into it, it is black humor. Here is Larsen's schpiel, in case you missed it:
"In order for Satan to establish his 'New World Order' and destroy the freedom of all people as predicted in the Scriptures, he must first destroy the U.S.," his resolution states. "The mostly quiet and unspectacular invasion of illegal immigrants does not focus the attention of the nations the way open warfare does, but is all the more insidious for its stealth and innocuousness."
Yikes.
DS
just vote no | 4:53 p.m. Oct. 11, 2007
That way my kids dont have to share classrooms with the poor and the non english
speaking .I much prefer it that way so JUST VOTE NO.
Anonymous | 12:08 p.m. Oct. 12, 2007
Someone in her position should know better than to use "Dark Humor" in
that way. It makes her look ridiculous, which she is.
alp | 9:26 p.m. Oct. 12, 2007
This is probably the most humorous thing I have read in a while. ONLY IN UTAH
would supporters of anything be referenced to Satan. The comment just shows how
crazy the anti-voucher leaders are. Puh-lease, people.
tongue in Cheek | 11:46 p.m. Oct. 12, 2007
The Pro Voucher crowd have called teachers Liberals. I think that hurts more
than being a Satanist in Utah. At least Satanism is a religion and protected
under the first amendment. But what of those poor Liberal educators that will
be ostracized through all this?
Adam Smith | 7:05 p.m. Oct. 13, 2007
Those against vouchers say they are for the kids, but in fact, if you were for
the kids you would support vouchers. Truth is, they are for the public school
system...the system that, coupled with the NEA and proliberal attorneys have
created a crisis in our public school system which explains why most public
school teachers send their kids to private schools. The system works for some
and not for some. Why should parents of lesser means be stuck with an
inadequate education for their child while those who have means can opt out?
Europe has choice...private, religion, or public and the State pays for it.
Parents there would never come here for a public education. Even teachers
complain that they can't teach due to discipline problems that the system
created and accommodates. Just add up the shootings, etc, etc. Plus, the
system got rid of the Bible..the true Word of God and truth. They got rid of
teaching character. Heck, kids graduate today without any knowledge of the
Founding documents, which House Speaker Pelosi has yet to read too as she has
excluded God from the country. That was, and is the agenda.
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