Reader comments
Heated voucher battle turns ugly with fear of the devil thrown in
124 comments | Read story
Alan Robinson | 1:39 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Satan??? He always seems to be in trouble!!!
arc | 6:48 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Just read the voter info. Most people reading what the voucher bill really does,
will vote for it.
I do like the Eyre cookie ad. I wish more people would see it, but of course, they don't have the 3 million dollars the NEA is putting in this.
I do like the Eyre cookie ad. I wish more people would see it, but of course, they don't have the 3 million dollars the NEA is putting in this.
Comments continue below
David | 7:11 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
True, this is a non-story. A better story would be covering the reaction against
Parent for Choice in Education by those who support vouchers. Some are even
suggesting that Parents for Choice is trying to get vouchers defeated by using
their divisive tactics.
Al R | 7:19 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
It is sad that we can be so polarized as a state by a simple thing like
vouchers. What will happen when something more substantial comes up for debate
before the voting public.
I agree with the above comment that vouchers will be defeated, but not because they are bad, but because the people most loudly supporting them are going to what I believe extremes, and that doesn't excuse those against them from blame either. Why does choice scare you so much?
If satan is involved he is involved on both sides of the issue. I can't believe that in commenting on vouchers I even had the opportunity to mention that serpent. Truely sad, indeed.
I agree with the above comment that vouchers will be defeated, but not because they are bad, but because the people most loudly supporting them are going to what I believe extremes, and that doesn't excuse those against them from blame either. Why does choice scare you so much?
If satan is involved he is involved on both sides of the issue. I can't believe that in commenting on vouchers I even had the opportunity to mention that serpent. Truely sad, indeed.
Sam Hofer | 7:21 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Time and again we prove how we can take public debate to the next level of
stupid if we drag religion into it. I'm against vouchers, but come on. This
is just silly.
Mike | 7:25 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Wow, as a pretty firm voucher opponent, I've got to say this goes too far.
I'd slam it if the other side did it, so I've got to slam it if my
side does it. People can disagree with your political views without being
hellspawn. Deal with it. We're moving far too quickly into rhetoric more
at home in the Middle Ages. You can be passionate without getting stupid.
Kevin | 7:55 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I'm against vouchers, but the Satan notion is pretty stupid. That's
funny, though, what Alan said above. That says it all.
St. George | 7:56 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
To voucher, or not to voucher? Either way will do, and children will benefit by
receiving education. Why can't vouchers be optional, giving parents a
choice? This is not a moral issue, it is a matter of personal preference.
Sandy | 8:06 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
An organization that supposedly looks out for the well being of children and
parents has stooped to name calling, and SATAN at that, to an organization that
simply would like to offer parents a choice in their kids education. Talk about
getting caught with your pants down!!!
Salt Lake City | 8:10 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The will of the people will win regardless of the anti voucher nasty tactics.
Parents care deeply about their kids and will turn out to vote on behalf of
their children. Vouchers will win big time!
PCE = Satanic liars? | 8:11 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
So, anyone care to get into specifics of what PCE has supposedly done to warrant
being called Satanic hate-filled intimidating liars? The only information
I've seen geared toward fear has come from the other side of the issue,
also without providing specifics. For example: Vouchers are flawed...why?
Vouchers will harm public school...how? Vouchers will take money away from
public school..and if they also reduce the cost by over twice the money moving
out why is this bad? If you're going to call someone names, at least
pretend to have the decency to specifically state why. Or better yet, just
provide the specific arguments and leave the intimidating name calling out.
Anonymous | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I'm a voucher opponent, but SATAN? Oh, please.
Nonyabusiness | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Go vouchers! Who are these clowns calling us parents wanting a choice from
Satan... If supporting my children in their education is from Satan - so be it!
I'm for kids and I'm for vouchers...
Satan, not the real reason | 8:16 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The real reason to be against vouchers has nothing to do with religion. But
everything to do with keeping public tax dollars going to public schools. When
you have a child you have many choices... one of those being wether to pay extra
to send your child to private school.
School vouchers would be a blow against improving the public education system here in Utah.
School vouchers would be a blow against improving the public education system here in Utah.
Satan has arrived LOL | 8:16 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
LOL, this gave me a good laugh this morning. This lady is off her rocker and
shouldnt be in the position she is in. Satan? Is this lady for real? LOL, Im
sure Satan came up with the voucher system. This lady is killing me with
stupidity. And I dont even care about vouchers.
Lucifer | 8:18 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Don't blame this mess on me! I had nothing to do with it.
Poor, poor Satan | 8:26 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Satan always gets the blame. Why not blame stupidity? And I thought pro-voucher
ads wresting the Book of Mormon were bad. We are surrounded by idiots. I
surrender.
Satan | 8:35 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I had nothing to do with this.
BLC | 8:49 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The voucher initiative is another try for the government to impose a dole and
control upon its citizenry. By doling public money to private causes it is the
same as the expansion of public welfare. Although the folks wanting vouchers are
probably not associated directly with Satan anytime you try to enslave people by
making them subject to the public dole you do further his cause. I will be
voting no on vouchers and encourage all who believe in freedom and choice to
also vote no. It is the responsible thing to do. It is just plain bad
legislation.
Instereo | 8:54 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
This story and most of these comments are just hilarious to me. Kind of like
"let me pull the mote out of your eye." The beam is that pro-voucher
side has used fear and hate consitantly throughout their campaign both in their
ads and in the comments you see in the newspapers or hear on the radio. Ted
Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, the NEA, the UEA, Liberalism and all other kinds of
adjectives have been used to get people worked up and to be positive for
vouchers because if they don't think of the terrible things that will
happen in public schools.
So one person says "Satan" in an email and the whole pro-voucher side is offended. I'm sorry, I think it's really all very funny. I'm going to vote NO on referendum 1 with no appologies and I won't even take offense at all the names I've been called for being against vouchers and for public schools.
So one person says "Satan" in an email and the whole pro-voucher side is offended. I'm sorry, I think it's really all very funny. I'm going to vote NO on referendum 1 with no appologies and I won't even take offense at all the names I've been called for being against vouchers and for public schools.
To Beliver | 8:59 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The Satan reference came from an anti-voucher person, so if it affects the vote
at all it will give a leg up to those who support vouchers. However, I think
that misinformation and fear will rule the day and vouchers will be defeated.
The Real Issue | 9:09 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Only the rich can afford to send their children to private schools vochers or
not. Why should the taxpayers of Utah be asked to help rich send their students
to expensive private schools?
WC | 9:21 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Equating Satan with the pro-voucher camp? Why be so mean to Satan - what did he
do to deserve that?
Just Me | 9:23 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
didn't the other side try to bring the whole of the LDS church into this by
stating that the LDS church should be all for it. All of these tactics are
funny to me. I was going to vote against vouchers because I read the insert
that was in the paper, but now, maybe I'll vote for vouchers just so I can
say I voted for Satan. Just kidding.
Shame on DesNews | 9:27 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
This is truly shoddy news writing. C'mon DesNews.
How trustworthy is an e-mail and where did you get your source information. Even if this did happen, why does the public need to hear about it?
I'm almost as disappointed in the e-mail recipient for letting the newspaper know about the e-mail as I am at the person who supposedly wrote it but did "not answer for comment." I'm even more Disappointed with the writer and editor of the newspaper for printing something that truly can't be proven that was true.
This article was truly terrible. Why do you think she didn't answer for comment? It's one of two things: either she is embarrassed at her own actions, or she didn't write it and "doesn't need to deal with something like that."
I still can't get over why the newspaper ever got information like that. Grow up people.
How trustworthy is an e-mail and where did you get your source information. Even if this did happen, why does the public need to hear about it?
I'm almost as disappointed in the e-mail recipient for letting the newspaper know about the e-mail as I am at the person who supposedly wrote it but did "not answer for comment." I'm even more Disappointed with the writer and editor of the newspaper for printing something that truly can't be proven that was true.
This article was truly terrible. Why do you think she didn't answer for comment? It's one of two things: either she is embarrassed at her own actions, or she didn't write it and "doesn't need to deal with something like that."
I still can't get over why the newspaper ever got information like that. Grow up people.
Iron | 9:42 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Is John Jacob and his devil still around? LOL
Where is God? | 9:43 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
So, if Satan is driving PCE then, do Utahns for Public Schools assume their
smoke screens and fear have God behind them??
Draper | 9:46 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
So now I am of Satan...I guess I could have been called worse. I am guilty, I
am pro-voucher. I am so tired of hearing about how the rich will benefit from
this bill. The rich that have their children in private schools will not
benefit from this bill as it does not apply to children currently enrolled in
private schools unless you meet the qualifications for reduced price hot lunch
program. The most the "rich" can obtain if they choose to enroll
their children after the bill is passed is $500. Not nearly enough to ofset the
cost of tuition. The true beneficiaries of this program are the poor and lower
middle class, as they will have the choice to send their children to private
schools via vouchers and financial aid programs...YES private schools DO offer
financial aid. With a $3,000 voucher most poor and lower middle class families
can make the choice for private school education, but those opposed don't
want you to believe this. Many private schools participate in the reduced price
hot lunch program, but opponents don't want you to hear that fact...This
program is aimed at reducing the overcrowding in public schools a lofty goal.
Patrick Henry | 9:56 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I have no children at or below school age, but as long as the public school
system maintains a thing called "tenure", enabling incompetent or
burned out teachers to keep their jobs, and continues to waste money on
excessive extra-curricular activities, I find it hard to be opposed to
vouchers.
Oh, and if I remember correctly, Satan was the one OPPOSED to freedom of choice.
Oh, and if I remember correctly, Satan was the one OPPOSED to freedom of choice.
Oh brother | 10:04 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I'm still deciding on vouchers, but one person's off-base comments in
a private email is not a campaign by any group.
Yeah, "Satan" is it! | 10:10 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Yeah, "Satan" is it! He's such a good excuse for everything
isn't he? (lol)
Daniel Allington | 10:18 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers can actually be a win-win situation for the public schools by
actually having fewer students in the classroom, but more money for each
student.
It seems to me if the NEA is going nuts over this issue we vote for it and against them.
It also smells of big eastern states trying to tell the small western states what to do and bullying us to do their will. We need to stand up for what we truely believe and tell the big-state bullies to: "butt out of our business!"
In the past when the NEA has gone crazy against something, it really is the right thing to vote for it. I truely believe that the NEA is simply a union looking out for itself, not the children of Utah. Let's send them packing and vote for refendum #1.
As a parent (not a rich one, mind you) The numbers do add up. Let's vote for the vouchers and make life better for all kids, including special needs kids like mine!!
Thanks for reading this.
Sincerely,
Daniel E. Allington
It seems to me if the NEA is going nuts over this issue we vote for it and against them.
It also smells of big eastern states trying to tell the small western states what to do and bullying us to do their will. We need to stand up for what we truely believe and tell the big-state bullies to: "butt out of our business!"
In the past when the NEA has gone crazy against something, it really is the right thing to vote for it. I truely believe that the NEA is simply a union looking out for itself, not the children of Utah. Let's send them packing and vote for refendum #1.
As a parent (not a rich one, mind you) The numbers do add up. Let's vote for the vouchers and make life better for all kids, including special needs kids like mine!!
Thanks for reading this.
Sincerely,
Daniel E. Allington
EG | 10:20 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
As a parent and grandparent I've witnessed the degradation of public
schools. I'm saddened when I see what other countries are achieving with
their youth and where ours are headed. They are way ahead of us in science and
math. What�s our world going to be like when the current
school age children are running this country?
If we keep doing what we�ve been doing we�ll keep getting what we�ve got. Our children deserve a chance to be all they can and our public schools are falling short. The voucher system may not be the answer but it�s a start.
If we keep doing what we�ve been doing we�ll keep getting what we�ve got. Our children deserve a chance to be all they can and our public schools are falling short. The voucher system may not be the answer but it�s a start.
kwo | 10:22 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
A non-story? Hardly. It seems rather significant that an official PTA
representative would stoop to this kind of attack.
I too oppose the current voucher legislation, not because I believe vouchers are in and of themselves a bad idea but because I believe this legislation is flawed.
I too oppose the current voucher legislation, not because I believe vouchers are in and of themselves a bad idea but because I believe this legislation is flawed.
For Learning | 10:33 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Warning: Subtle a diversionay tactic. Do not lose sight of the objective: to
increase the capacity for child learning in the State of Utah. Has anyone on
this thread actually spent time in public schools?
In the classroom DISCIPLINE is restricted (teachers cannot teach), simple respect for adults is missing(teachers cannot teach), and there is limited parental participation (teachers cannot teach).
I admit, that I am not sure if the voucher proposal will solve this problem...but I AM sure that the liberal educators union (NEA) and our modern socio-cultural system has created it.
As-such, I am considering this proposal very seriously. Children are getting lost in the current program where teachers cannot teach.
Call this what it is, a diversion from a healthy discussion to benefit our rising generation.
In the classroom DISCIPLINE is restricted (teachers cannot teach), simple respect for adults is missing(teachers cannot teach), and there is limited parental participation (teachers cannot teach).
I admit, that I am not sure if the voucher proposal will solve this problem...but I AM sure that the liberal educators union (NEA) and our modern socio-cultural system has created it.
As-such, I am considering this proposal very seriously. Children are getting lost in the current program where teachers cannot teach.
Call this what it is, a diversion from a healthy discussion to benefit our rising generation.
Lucifer, Son of the Mourning | 10:35 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
After waking up from a Mountain Dew induced hangover from last night's
all-nighter with Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears party at the
local hub, I didn't expect my good name to be thrown around into
Utah's Voucher mess.
If I had my way, no one would ever read, and no one would ever be entitled to an education. That whole mess with Guttenburg a few centuries back was not a good thing for you at all. Just forget it and move on. And while we are at it, we should close down the whole public system. What's the point of it anyway. It is costing all you saintly Utahns a lot of cold hard cash. You could do better with less. While I am not saying I support Vouchers, at least look at them. See how much MONEY I can save you if I am just allowed to. I am not here to deceive you. If I was I'd have just bought up enough legislators to keep the PTA and UEA from ever derailing me.
If I had my way, no one would ever read, and no one would ever be entitled to an education. That whole mess with Guttenburg a few centuries back was not a good thing for you at all. Just forget it and move on. And while we are at it, we should close down the whole public system. What's the point of it anyway. It is costing all you saintly Utahns a lot of cold hard cash. You could do better with less. While I am not saying I support Vouchers, at least look at them. See how much MONEY I can save you if I am just allowed to. I am not here to deceive you. If I was I'd have just bought up enough legislators to keep the PTA and UEA from ever derailing me.
GWB | 10:36 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Why should Satan get all the credit - some people are just plain evil without
his help!
LGU | 10:40 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
As an opponant to vouchers I had to laugh when I read Ms. Rose's comment.
I'll bet she would like to take it back. The question that came to mind,
however, is this; Is satan really involved or is Dana Carvey behind this smear
campain? Trust Hollywood to get involved and try to change the politics of our
state.
P.S. Any typo's or misspellings are not my fault. I learned from a privte school without voucher support.
P.S. Any typo's or misspellings are not my fault. I learned from a privte school without voucher support.
stat | 10:44 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I wish Dan Jones would take a poll and ask Utahns whether or not they believe in
Satan, and whether they think Satan is in favor of school vouchers or against
them. THAT would be newsworthy!
bob | 10:44 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Seems like fair is fair. Metro says you got to vote for vouchers to be a good
mormon. Not much difference between these two stupid comments. Lets call it a
draw.
Anonymous | 10:45 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Daniel,
Most of us just go the opposite of what the Sutherland Institute thinks. They are the crazy local people, and when they speak, people listen.
Most of us just go the opposite of what the Sutherland Institute thinks. They are the crazy local people, and when they speak, people listen.
BYUGrad | 10:49 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers are nothing more or less than subsidies to private businesses. How many
horrible "private" schools will pop up if vouchers pass?
Vouchers are also an incentive to get parents to spend money sending their kids to private school. It is like a coupon for $2000 off the $4500 tuition. Don't you see how this is a bad idea? Do you really want to turn education into a supermarket-like system. I think education is more important than that and it deserves better.
Vouchers are also an incentive to get parents to spend money sending their kids to private school. It is like a coupon for $2000 off the $4500 tuition. Don't you see how this is a bad idea? Do you really want to turn education into a supermarket-like system. I think education is more important than that and it deserves better.
Why you don't want vouchers | 10:50 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Vouchers are a bad idea for everyone. "Private school" does not always
equal better education. Many of our public schools are excellent. We should
spend money improving those public schools that are not great and rewarding
those public schools that are great.
Even without vouchers parents will have the option of sending their kids to private school on their own dime. I would rather have my education dollars supporting a child in public school in Rose Park than a child in private school at Roland Hall St. Mark's.
Even without vouchers parents will have the option of sending their kids to private school on their own dime. I would rather have my education dollars supporting a child in public school in Rose Park than a child in private school at Roland Hall St. Mark's.
KH | 11:04 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
The Voucher issue should have nothing to do with your decision to leave public
schools or not. The Voucher issue is just about money. If you are really
convinced the public schools are evil, your kids should already be out
(regardless of whether you can get someone else to pay for it or not).
Are the voucher supporters with kids still in public schools saying, "Public schools are the devil, but I'm going to leave my kids there unless I get my $500-$3000 check from the government"? If so, you are selling your children pretty cheaply.
I always scratch my head when I hear a voucher supporter say, "If you don't vote for vouchers your taking away my child's right to go to private school". They have that right now.
Vouchers are not about the right to choose. Vouchers are about financial aid.
If public schools are evil, they are evil with or without vouchers.
Are the voucher supporters with kids still in public schools saying, "Public schools are the devil, but I'm going to leave my kids there unless I get my $500-$3000 check from the government"? If so, you are selling your children pretty cheaply.
I always scratch my head when I hear a voucher supporter say, "If you don't vote for vouchers your taking away my child's right to go to private school". They have that right now.
Vouchers are not about the right to choose. Vouchers are about financial aid.
If public schools are evil, they are evil with or without vouchers.
Look at it this way | 11:15 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
It is like giving some public school teachers a raise. I know several that are
making huge sacrifices to send their own children to private schools. Who said
you have to be rich to afford private school education? You just have to be
willing to give up the boat and recreational vehicles.
think about it | 11:19 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Years ago my husband joined the NEA. It was at that time trying to keep
teachers out of joining a labor union. He still gets the NEA magazine, now a
strong union that wants to control the education in our country. We are
uncomfortable with a national organization that advises teachers what they
should be teaching. Parents should have the choice of what kind of schools they
want for their children's best
interest. Those against vouchers forget that the money for children in public schools comes out of all our pockets, so those who choose private schools are supporting those children in public schools, too.
interest. Those against vouchers forget that the money for children in public schools comes out of all our pockets, so those who choose private schools are supporting those children in public schools, too.
Re: The Real Issue | 11:29 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
You asked "why should the Taxpayers of Utah be asked to help [the] rich
send their students to expensive private schools." I am not
"rich" and can not afford to send my children anywhere but my local
public schools although I would like to find a better alternative. If I did, I
would be obligated to spend tax dollars on failing public schools while paying
for my choice - must I be obligated to support BOTH my children's needs and
also a public school system just in trying to educate my children?
Do Children really come first?
Do Children really come first?
BYU Grad Also | 11:35 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
Public schools are a government-run monopoly. Vouchers will introduce
competition into the education system. Competition will benefit our children
because it will force public schools to improve.
I think education is too important to be left to a government monopoly.
I think education is too important to be left to a government monopoly.
vouchers...okay but | 11:37 a.m. Oct. 9, 2007
I have no problem with vouchers as a concept, but this bill just doesn't
make any sense. I really don't see it significantly increasing attendance
in private schools anyway. The way it's set up...If I have 2 school age
children and I make $35,000, I would get a total of $6000 in vouchers...$3000
per kid. Does anyone actually think on that kind of money I could come up with
an additional $10,000 per year to put my kids in private school. And even if I
could muster up that much cash, how would that be a bad thing for the state?
They would have 2 less students in school and get to keep about $9000 because
they wouldn't be spending it on my kids. So I think it's safe to say
LEAVE THE DEVIL OUT OF IT!!!! Let's debate the real issues. I mean
really...if we're going to have a voucher proposal, let's have a real
one. If the state spends $7500 per student per year...then why in the world
isn't the voucher for $7500? Just wondering...
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Wow! Someone with the guts to say that liars are liars. Noble supporters of the referendum are disgusted with the brass-knuckles tactics of Parents for Choice in Education. They are their own worst enemy. Vouchers will be defeated because Parents for Choice has shown their true colors as aggressive, hate-filled intimidators that do not represent those sincere people who believe that vouchers will help all children.
The show is over - vouchers will be defeated and Parents for Choice has no one to blame but themselves.