Deseret News | A Christian queston: LDS seek to define faith on their own terms

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News analysis: A Christian queston: LDS seek to define faith on their own terms

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Supergroove | 3:27 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Sam Hofer,
ditto to the last comment.

extrafeetmom | 3:44 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

If you don't think we are Christians, you need to listen, or read Jeffery R Hollands talk today at conference..........amazing.

to bookaholic | 3:56 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

You have definitely lost your marbles because Jimmy Carter is an amazing human being. You may not agree with him politically, but some of your accusations are patently false. I can't imagine you actually read books or the news for that matter.

Comments continue below

Mormon in a Blue State | 4:01 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Born Again, I have read the New Testament 15 times, the Old Testament 4, prayed about it, was born again, and am still active LDS. You can tell me I'm not a Christian, but I will simply say, "thanks for your opinion" and only I can decide if I'm Christian or not. And I'm a Christian, thank you.

Anonymous | 4:46 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

To mormon in a blue state,

You missed it - you must read the New Testament a minimum of 20 times, including at least 5 in the original Greek - to qualify as a "Christian." Get a clue.

Copyright on Jesus | 4:48 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

It is not for Mormons or anyone else to define who is or is not Christian, as if anyone can hold the "copyright" on Jesus!

To Sam Hofer | 4:54 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

You're all right. We're all learning in this crazy world. Hang in there.

KingM | 5:50 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I won't vote for Romney. Not because he doesn't seem like a decent guy, but the guy has made oaths in the temple that are higher than any oath of office or promise to uphold the Constitution. I highly doubt it would ever happen, but if the prophet gave him an order, he has promised under covenant to obey. I don't want my president to have a higher loyalty to his church than to his oath of office. That may be fine for all of you who believe in the same church as he does, but for those of us who don't, it's unsettling, to say the least.

And yes, for what it's worth, I think it's a valid question to ask whether JFK's loyalties would be to the Pope or Lieberman's to Israel. I'm not saying that there's not a good answer to those questions, but I think they are legitimate questions to ask.

Buddha bill | 6:29 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Try Buddhism. Reincarnation is real!

Salt Laker | 6:54 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Our constitution was God given so I don't think you have to worry about Mitt Romney not upholding the constitution.

grundle | 7:11 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Sam,
My respect for you has just sky-rocketed!

Anonymous | 7:36 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Just to add and for information - with respect to someone's comment about restoration of the teachings of the Bible - the role of the Pope is to retain the true teachings as written in the Bible and to ensure it is not changed.

Salt Laker | 8:15 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

The problem is the Catholic Church is, is that it has changed parts of the bible in the last 1000 years to fit in with what the people want.

dana | 8:22 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

A lot of interesting comments. I am not a Republican but find Harry Reid to be a rather dispicable politician. However, if the church wants to have him speak at BYU let him. I wouldn't care to go because I have read a lot about him and follow him pretty closely and disagree with him on about every subject. He may be a good person but to me is a horrendous and despicable politician. I would same the same for Jummy Carter and George Bush. I am a convert of a number of years ago and am a faithful member. I have prayed and received a very strong testimony form Our Father about the truthfulness of the church. To me, that ends all discussion. I could care less about what others call me. But it is good that the church is being more proactive in countering the lies and distortions that are so prevalent among many about the church. To the born again, I have read both the Bible and the Book of Mormon and prayed and received the answer. That is why I am a member of the LDS church.

born again | 8:26 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

To the Mormon in a blue state, like I said before I know there are LDS people who are born again and are part of the family of God. God will still work in your life no matter where you decide to worship Him. Read the Book of John over and over. Jesus who is God, is bigger than your religion and will never be confined to a man made tradition. Over time if you truly are born again He will begin to reveal who He is to you and put Christian brothers and sisters in your path to be used by the Holy Spirit to plant seeds to you about who Jesus is. God (Jesus) knows your heart and knows if you truley are His. He says His sheep hear His voice and obey. By the way, reading the Bible over and over has nothing to do with a person being a Christian, but when you are Born again there should be a hunger to know the word of God. God Bless you brother.

Anonymous | 8:34 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Salt Laker - what do you mean?

LDS taking RLDS road? | 8:47 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I'm somewhat turned off by the scramble to be labled as mainstream Christian. I understand that we are Christians in the literal sense and meaning of the word, but we are not Christians as modern Christianity defines the word, so why seek the same label they use? Isn't this the same road the RLDS took? Seeking to become popular and accepted by the mainstream. We see where it has lead them. Maybe it should be more clearn that..."Yeah, we are Christians, but not in the same way most Christians define the word."

S.T. | 8:56 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Oh, don't get Mormons started on how the Bible has been corrupted by all those evil people in the councils (Nicea, etc.), and all the corruption of the horrible Popes, etc. that caused "The Dark Ages" (dun-dun-dun)! Not only do LDS try to carve out a faith "in their own terms:, but they rewrite history to do so, and not just their own history. Their distorted, outdated, ethnocentric re-writing of the history of Christianity is appalling and blatantly deceptive!

Anonymous | 8:59 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

LDS taking RLDS road - What is the difference?

Anonymous | 9:14 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

The LDS Church talks a great game while it sands for nothing but self serving greed.I'm not catholic but at least the Pope will not be silent on torture.

BJ | 9:22 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

LDS think because they are "the one and only true church" that anything they do is fine. That is why they are so inconsiderate of other faiths ("move if you don't like it!"). Consider Conference... everybody laughed when Holland said "we agree that [trinitarian doctrine] is incomprehensible." That was a we-are-superior-to-you, mocking laugh at the religious beliefs of others.

R B | 9:36 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity than any other denomination. Perhaps the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).

Lutabell | 9:45 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

I think it was good for Elder Holland to say we are Christians, especially in light of the fact that in the near future Mitt Romney is going to give a speech similar to the one JFK did decades ago about his Catholicism. (For you youngins out there, lots of people hated Kennedy just because he was Catholic and wouldn't vote for him simply becuase of that). But lets not kid ourselves, we Mormons do not believe in the incarnation--God taking the form of a man and coming to earth. We believe VERY DIFFERENTLY and should be proud of our beliefs and not cow tow to anyone or make apologies to anyone or group.

Dear Anonymous | 10:03 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

"The LDS Church talks a great game while it stands for nothing but self serving greed."

Could you please elaborate on the "greed" claim?
I've heard this from non-mormons from time to time. I sincerely would like to hear of some examples of greed in the mormon church.

I've seen with my own eyes that my home is nicer (more expensive) than one of the twelve apostles. I know that the prophet has a modest apartment. The prophet, apostles, and seventies all live and spend conservatively. Bishops, stake presidents, and local church leaders don't receive one penny for their service. Who, exactly, in the mormon church is greedy and who, pray tell, is benefitting from this "greed?"

You are aware, no doubt, that the mormon church donates hundreds of millions of dollars in cash, goods, services, and labor in humanitarian efforts all around the world?

You are aware, of course, that the LDS church has typically been the first responder in many of the worldwide disasters of the last few decades?

Certainly you would not cast baseless aspersions of greed within the mormon church without some evidence.

Would you please enlighten us?

Doc | 10:07 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Lutabell,

What do you mean we Mormons do not believe in the incarnation? Of course we do. Check your doctrines again, please. You are misrepresenting the LDS faith. Errors like yours are exactly why people think we are not Christian.

Anonymous | 10:10 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

If, as those who accept the definition of God created by committee at Nice, it makes me wonder if Baptists or ï¿½fundamentalistsï¿½ are Christians. The description of Christ, as detailed in the bible, is diametrically opposite the description defined by the Nicene Creed.

So ï¿½evangelicalï¿½ Christians could be said to be following a version or definition of Christ not defined in the bible and therefore they are not Christian since they do not accept the biblical definition of Christ but use a human committee definition. Thus by definition they are not Christian.

I love "open minded" liberals | 10:11 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Hey there S.T., if your so well educated and unpolluted, then why have historians, both secular and religious, admitted to the fact that there have been several popes who, by no fault of their own, were ordained to the office as mere teenagers? And what about popes who raped women when they came in to the cathedrals alone? I know this sounds one sided, but I will say that I think Pope John Paul II was an amazing man. He did great good, both for the catholic faith and the world as a whole. I will also say that any leader of any faith who truly lives the doctorines of their faith, is a tribute to goodness. History is full of horrible things. And since when is historical fact "outdated"? There are too many incidents to mention in the history of this country that historians have "chosen to forget" to make books more politically correct and less ofensive. If you ask me, the whole political correctness movement derives from politicians and cry babies who have never grown out of the playground tatle tale stage, and personally I think that is what is destroying our country!

JWK | 10:28 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

After years I have come to the point where I take no offense at anything that someone says about me or my faith in Christ. I no longer get angry at people for things they may say or do.

I am 'born again' though I am not comfortable with so many people who profess such status but don't really seem to change. I have read the Old Testament and the New Testament and I am surprised at how many people only pick this part or another and base their whole faith on those parts. The Bible needs to be see in whole and not only in acceptable parts.

Once outside the Church I am returned home and in doing so, I am reborn.

Huh? | 10:38 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Are you Mormons expecting us to believe that your "council of the twelve" is NOT a "committee"?! Did you read the description Eyring gave as to how they get together and discuss and disagree and work through things? Why do you claim that God can work through these "modern prophets" in their committees, but he couldn't work through those ancient councils?

Anonymous | 11:03 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

To Anonymous - I do not understand this - can you please explain Jesus Christ as described in the Bible and then in the Nicene Creed? THX.

AndyD,Ont CA | 11:08 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Hallelujah! As a BYU graduate I was deeply disturbed to hear that the Vice Pres. of a crooked administration would speak at BYU commencement exercises. At least there is some hope, and my faith in BYU is being restored, by having a Democratic leader speak at BYU. Note: The LDS church is not an extension of the Republican Party and being a Democrat does not mean you'll find yourselves in Outer Darkness.

SparkyVA | 11:44 p.m. Oct. 6, 2007

Hey, having Harry Reed speak is a great idea. Don't know how much he will influence the audience, but I would like to hear him defend himself and the company he keeps.
But here is the kicker. Since Harry gets to speak, who can then complain when Mitt gets to speak???

Actually the Church is getting a lot of good exposure from these people, and the missionary program will benefit. We also benefit from the Baptists and other evangelical Christians as well. They are carrying the message of Christianity into non-Christian areas of the world just as we are, and are helping introduce these people to Christ. Please remember the D&C commandment "contend against no church save the church of the devil" and, my many good Baptist friends, you don't qualify to be contended against. You are on the same side as we are (Christ's), like it or not.

Aerid | 12:21 a.m. Oct. 7, 2007

Good luck, Sam Hofer. As an active member of the LDS church, I was offended by some of your past comments. But I really appreciate your last comment in this thread and I wish you health and happiness. :)

Sue North-Blake | 1:09 a.m. Oct. 7, 2007

Henry Drummond wrote that he thought it outrageous that one church would have the audacity to claim another church isn't Christian.

Well, here's news for you! The Roman Catholic Church has just done that.-

Pope: Other Christians Not True Churches

July 10, 2007

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches...."

To: "Huh" | 4:01 a.m. Oct. 7, 2007

Answer: When individuals or groups turn away from the principles of the gospel,(Isa 24:5) they are in a state of apostasy. (2 Thess Chp. 2)

Periods of general apostasy have occured throughout the history of the world (Amos 8:11,12). One example is the Great Apostasy, which occured after the Savior established His Church. (Matt. 24:1-12)

Man lived in what was known as the dark ages for over 1500 years. (Devoid of the Priesthood Authority to act in the name of God/Christ - All foretold in the Holy Bible)

During such time a "Reformation period" came to be with the likes of good men such as, Martin Luther and John Calvin breaking off from the Roman Catholic Church and forming their own. Since that time to the present, there are over 1500 break-off Christian professing churches in existance.

Since there has always been only one true Christian Church (Eph 4:5) it needed to be restored before Christ's second coming with the same organizational structure that existed some 2000 yrs ago. (Amos 3:7)

There are really only 2 positions to consider: The perpetuation of the Apostolic Succession through the Catholic Church, or, the Restoration of Christ's original Church in the Latter Days.

Nicene Creed - - an abomination | 5:25 a.m. Oct. 7, 2007

A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

The Nicene Creedï¿½s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: "There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one."

Scribes later added "the Father, the Word and the Spirit," and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .

Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit.

Ben | 6:10 a.m. Oct. 7, 2007

As long as Heavenly Father, through Jesus Christ, is prayed to for guidance then how can any person (or religion for that matter) go wrong? It's only when people allow the "natural man" to have control over their actions, words, and deeds that they run into trouble.

How do we as children of our Heavenly Father avoid this "snare"? Pray always.

Luke 21:34-36
34 ï¿½ And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting (rioting, strifes, uproar, shouting, tumults, rants, excess of laughter), and drunkenness, and cares of this life (worldliness), and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man (Jehovah, son of Eloheim).

HGW | 9:07 a.m. Oct. 7, 2007

Your view of history was over 100 years out of date when Talmage and Roberts plagiarized it to make the "Great Apostasy" argument. It is now over 200 years out of date. No educated person takes such nonsense seriously anymore than they take the idea that the earth is flat seriously. Get an education - even an elementary education should correct such backward ideas.

Cali Girl | 10:44 a.m. Oct. 7, 2007

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - The name says it all.

All the rest of this bickering, arguing, & debating doesn't change a thing, we ARE Christ centered.

I am secure in my membership in the church and the relationship I have with the lord. If all the rest of you feel the need to debate if we are Christian or not, have at it. I hope and pray knowledge is gained while you are doing so.

Also Born Again | 1:23 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

To Dana, having a comformation from your heavenly father about your chruch is very subjective. Don't you think a muslom also gets conformation about his belief in allah? Feelings can be dangerous. That is why God gave us the Bible, His word. Read the book of Ephesians that tell us not to believe what we here but to read for ourselves in the word of God and search out truth. The true Church of Jesus Christ is not a religion or institution, it is made up of Born Again believers who have been adopted into the family of God through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The true church would have people from all walks of life. Including from the mormon church. The Church is the people not the institution.
To Ben- do a Bible study on the word Eloheim who you call your exalted man, heavenly father. The word literally means triune God (Trinity). You cannot know God unless you have met Jesus. Jesus is God in the flesh who is the image of the invisible God, God incarnate. (John 1:1) Read the Bible through Born again eyes, and you will understand this.

To HGW | 1:24 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

To Whom are you addressing?

To Nicene Creed - - an abominati | 2:00 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

That's pretty good. I didn't know that you were there to witness it. Or has the story been passed down to you from generation to generation.

Frank | 2:03 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

Being a convert to the LDS Church 40 years ago I have come to appreciate more the fact that many of those people that criticize the LDS Church have never picked up any Church literature and read what the Church truly teaches. I have a very close Baptist friend who I truly like, but some of his readings have been only anti- Mormon writings and he will not read any LDS teachings. I researched the authors of these anti-LDS writings and found some them to be deeply troubled people with a desire to fill their pockets with money through these types of writings. Yes I was one of those people who was not interested, that was before I decided to take the discussions and have my eyes opened. A real jury always listens to both sides of any discussion before a decision is rendered.I am far from perfect, but I know Christ is my Saviour

CG | 2:05 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

I am glad to see the General authorities take a proactive approach to informing the public of our beliefs.
I work with a National Sales firm. Recently I spoke with a lady from New Jersey about our companies services. All went well and as the sale was finalized we spoke of personal beliefs because she wondered if I am Mormon (because I live in Utah). I said yes, she asked how many wives I have. I laughed and told her that I and all other members of our church only have one. Her response was "oh really. I thought Mormons all have multiple wives".
This is a very common occurance in my job. How can they understand us if they have no idea of what our beliefs really are?

Seattle To born again | 2:47 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

To born again and huh: I am glad that you have found commitment to god by being "born again" and taking on a spiritual perspective compared to a temperal of physical perspective. That is what all Christians (Mormons included) are striving to do. They would all join you in stating that living a life based on Christs teaching will bring you happiness and peace.

You seemed to say, that being a former Mormon prevented you from living that type of life and that the Mormon definition of the nature of God prevented you from accepting the real Christ/God.

If that is true, state that as part of your message. Include the fact that the God as defined by Constantine in the Nicene Creed is accurate and that the "council" who developed it was inspired.

The LDS message is simple enough. It presents it message about who god is and how his nature was revealed. People and accept that or not.

You should state it as strongly.

G.H. | 3:59 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

To Frank,
I, and a good friend of mine (Bob) were good, temple-worthy Mormons for several decades. We have both read all the "best" LDS books and literature and history for years. We both served fulltime missions for the Church. We have both served as bishops, and between the two of us, we have served in almost every other calling at the Stake and Ward levels. We are both well educated. Through careful study and prayer over many years, we have realized that the Church is not what it represents itself to be. No, we have not committed any greivous sins, despite rumors that have been spread about us by members trying to defend their own fragile testimonies against the idea that good people can disbelieve the Church. I don't expect you to believe the same way that I do. But that is the point - you must not expect others to believe your way, either. Assuming a patronizing, condescending, condemning attitude toward those who believe differently than you is a major problem in the LDS Church. Generally, LDS members essentially demonize those who leave their ranks. There are godly non-Mormons.

Thank you G.H. | 4:39 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

Thank you from a godly non-morman

ToNoOneInParticular | 8:18 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

I don't trust most of the claims of online personas to begin with. One can claim to be whomever they want in the anonymity of the internet.

I certainly don't trust people who have the hubris to announce how well-educated they are when they can't even remember that i comes before e.

And, I'm extremely leery of anyone who would position himself as being anything close to "godly."

Just sayin...

Just my opinion... | 8:52 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

The polls that show sizeable fractions of people with negative opinions of the LDS church can be traced almost entirely to the polygamy issue, which is the one thing that the most ignorant person will know about the church. Of course we are Christian, only religious bigots insist otherwise. The negative opinions stem from the weirdness factor, which is due to the discontinued practice of polygamy. We are not going to get that monkey off our backs until we admit that there were gross abuses of the practice among the early saints (marrying other men's wives, marrying very young girls, etc.). Even then it would take a generation to get people to forget it once we apologized. We'll just have to live with the stigma. Mitt has essentially zero chance of being elected and is wasting his money. He could be selected as a cabinet official in a republican administration, but that is unlikely given the high probability of a democrat being elected (Hillary). Much ado about nothing.

Glenn Fuller in Arizona | 10:20 p.m. Oct. 7, 2007

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The name itself proclaims CHRIST, JESUS CHRIST. CHRISTIAN.

Speaker's apology to LDS stirs up fuss
By Carrie A. Moore
Deseret Morning News
Published: Jan. 14, 2005 6:23 p.m. MST
In the two months since a leading evangelical Christian apologized, on behalf of his fellow believers, to Latter-day Saints for mischaracterizations of their faith, several conservative Christians have voiced their displeasure with his remarks.

Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary, spoke Nov. 14 at the Tabernacle on Temple Square as part of an "Evening of Friendship." The meeting featured Christian philosopher Ravi Zacharias as the keynote speaker and was co-sponsored by a local group of evangelical ministers called Standing Together Ministries, and the Richard L. Evans Chair for Religious Understanding at Brigham Young University.
"Let me state it clearly. We evangelicals have sinned against you," Mouw said, noting a tendency among some Christians to distort the truth about the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "We have told you what you believe without making a sincere effort first of all to ask you what you believe."

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