Deseret News | Reader comments: Abuse lawsuit alleges widespread problems with Mormons, Boy Scouts

Reader comments
Abuse lawsuit alleges widespread problems with Mormons, Boy Scouts

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Orrin P. Rockwell | 9:48 a.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Perhaps it ISN'T as all bad as the motuhpiece is claiming, after all, he IS trying to make a buck or two for himself as well. Rivaling that Catholic Church "issues"? Not hardly, Mr. Clark, you're a financial opportunist, trying the case on the backs of your "clients".Perhaps giving them another dose of what Dykes gave them? Yes, of course, you ARE an attorney after all, it's in your nature, just like Dyke's.

Terry | 10:39 a.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I was a scout leader for many years as well as a primary teacher. I went to many camping outings with other troops as well as being around leaders in my own troop. I never saw these types of thing occur. It does not mean it does not go on, but on the scale of what goes on in the Catholic Church, I highly doubt it. There are pedophiles all over the country and we have to watch out for our children, grandchildren and our neighbors children as well. Poeple need to educate their children to speak out when someone tries to touch them or harm them. Never, and I mean never should an adult leader be in the same tent, camper, trailer alone unless it is the father of that boy. Leaders are taught through the BSA and the LDS church to always have two leaders on activities and trips. If only one leader was available, then the activity or trip should not have taken place. If the proper safegards had been followed in Oregon and recently in the Diamond Fork swimming incident, we would not be reading about these stories in the media. Our children are the future.

Scomike | 10:42 a.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I remember when this first case was tried and laughing at the verdict. The major difference lies in that the LDS church does not employ their teachers as the Catholic church does. The responsibility is far less, HOWEVER, were it to be a Bishop I could agree with this attorney but a sunday school teacher is not even remotely the same. Additionally this all just smacks of opportunism. I love those who seek damages who seek damages to make their life better. They claim the BSA and LDS church need to fix these problems yet I am failing to see how personal accumulation of wealth accomplishes this. Try this in civil court if that is what you are seeking. All of that being said what these men allegedly suffered is terrible and definitely could affect their entire lives. Having similar things occur in my family I definitely have sympathy for them, however I don't see how money will make things all better. Gettin Dykes locked up would make things better for others, mandating the LDS church and BSA implement sticker screening methods would help others, reaping millions as an attorney and a victim... I guess it helps the economy?

Comments continue below

Boris | 11:53 a.m. Oct. 4, 2007

If Mr. Clark is doing this for free, I would believe that he is interested in making the world a better place, but I suspect that he is only in it for personal gain.

me | 11:55 a.m. Oct. 4, 2007

One can never take too many precautions where children are concerned. It is too bad that Dykes somehow slipped thru the cracks to commit crimes against our young. I hope he gets what is coming to him, and I sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes when judgement time comes. Once a predator, always a predator !!!

bookaholic | 12:34 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

If guilty as it sounds he is, Dykes should go to jail for a LONG time. He's scum, and it's mindboggling that he slipped through the cracks and was able to abuse these boys.

That said, Clark is a self-serving buffoon. To compare the serial abuse and light handling of known Catholic priest predators (moving them from parish to parish after some counseling, allowing them to continue to work with youth without alerting the new parish) is so much crap.

There is no comparison whatsoever. In the LDS Church you would be excommunicated for sexual abuse of a child or anyone else. You wouldn't even be a Mormon any more--much less retain your calling and be moved to another locale to continue abusing. Totally bogus!

The Catholic Church has paid out probably a billion dollars by now and habitually acted in a way that protected abusing priests. In the past, psychologists thought you could counsel those leanings out of abusers. Now we know there is just about no help. Recidivism in this realm is high as the sky. Pity those kids, punish abusers, but don't put this on the Mormons. No way are the two situations comparable.

Daniel | 12:40 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

It is very interesting and sad to see people who are trying to make a buck on an organization that teaches against what they are being sued for. As if the LDS church is responsible for every bad thing one of thier "memebers" does. The person responsible for this is Mr. Dykes, not the LDS church who adamantly teaches against any form of child abuse. This is almost as absurd as suing a company for someone who was associated with it at some time for something they did in thier life. Mr. Dykes is the one responsible for his actions, the LDS church can't force him to be a good man that is his personal choice.

Mr. Responsibility | 1:05 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

It could be that all of these pedophiles were... actually trying to hide their addictions, ya know, keep other people from knowing what they did. Amazing concept. I love how transparent these cases are when they don't go after the people that actually committed the crime, just after any deep pockets they can sneak their hand into. Why aren't these molesters in jail, paying for their crimes?

down with the ACLU | 1:22 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

The ACLU is also probably supporting these lawsuits as part of their diabolical agenda.

fomo | 1:29 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Interesting that on the article about loosening liquor laws, everyone is screaming about the evil of alcohol. Hmm....on the article about little boys being molested and the church covering it up, WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE? It seems to me that the LDS church needs to teach their members some priorities.

Scoutmom | 1:38 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Having been a scout leader in LDS units for several years, I want to say that the Boy Scouts of America has developed one of the most effective Youth Protection programs I have ever seen anywhere. It includes their award-winning, age-appropriate videos, the Guide to Youth Protection for Parent booklets inside each boy's scout handbook, clear and specific policies (such as the "two-deep" leadership for all scout activities), background checks for all registered leaders, mandatory Youth Protection leader training, and the list goes on.

I have also seen first hand the immense amount of diligence that goes into training church leaders and scout leaders on BSA and LDS Youth Protection policies.

My heart goes out to those individuals who do get abused because a predator somehow falls through the cracks. My experience, however, tells me that the cracks in the BSA/LDS safety net are few and far between, and once they are discovered, it gets corrected immediately.

I'm grateful that my children have the opportunity to participate in such an excellent program that not only helps them reach their full potential, but does everything possible to help keep them safe.

non-believer | 1:55 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I have a hard time beliving the LDS church knew all about these perverts and just told them to have fun. Knowing their stand on sexual perversion and child abuse, this just doesn't sound credible to me.

I know there are those out there who would do or say anything to hurt the Boy Scout program or the LDS church (especially if they could get rich by going it). That scenario is more believable to me.

BTW
What does the LDS church's financial records have to do with a sex abuse case? Either they are guilty or not based on the evidence (not their finances). The judgement should not be based on their financial resources.

Mom3boys | 1:55 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

If he is guilty, then he needs to be in jail. I do know of a man, who was an LDS scoutleader in the late 70's, early 80's, who is serving time for a very very long time for molesting boys on one of the scout trips. And these "boys" are now in their 40's as well. I think it was more like "don't ask, don't tell" type thing back then. I don't think we will ever know in this life time of how many children have been abused over the years. I feel the LDS church is doing a better job at making sure kids stay safe, but as the church allows more and more people in...or baptizes more and more people, we are going to get a variety of members. One man in my ward now raped a 5 yr old girl when he was a teenager! RAPED! He was only in "jail" until he was 18, and then released. He still on the records, and still comes occasionally. Makes me sick whenever he shows up at church! I shouldn't judge, but...

Crazy! | 1:59 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

25 Million is so excessive. This sounds like some people are seeking to get more then they truly and honestly deserve.

I do acknowledge that abuse is a terrible thing and there is really no $ amount that can take away that pain. But that having been said I think 25 Million REEKS of OPPURTUNISM!

Garth | 2:03 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Where does this greedy lawyer think this money comes from? Well, it comes mainly from hard working middle class church member who pay tithes and offerings. And since the LDS Church has very little paid professional overhead, this money would be better spent supporting the mission of the Church which is preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and helping those in need. No wonder most people despise these kind of lawyers.

active lds | 2:12 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I am in my 50's and sadly when I was growing up society at large ignored pedophiles. The scoutmaster in my ward was well known for taking nudie pictures of boys at camp. As kids we were grossed out by it, but really didn't know we were supposed to report it. I am female and was warned by older girls in the ward who the "dirty old men" were. My cousin was molested by his LDS scoutmaster in Japan. To blame the Church is ridiculous. It is society's problem. I am personally offended when they refer to older Americans as the "greatest generation". They were the ones who perpetrated these awful crimes or chose to look the other way while knowing it was going on. I reported an incident to my mother and she just laughed at me. In this day Church leaders are diligent at dealing with the problem. In Northern California an LDS bishop was instrumental in helping to bust a pedophile ring when he reported the activities of one of his ward members who had confessed to him. Bishop's are taught that confidentiality doesn't apply in cases of abuse.

Michelle | 2:37 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

My first thought is that the LDS church is not liable for this; the abusers are. I agree that this is a total contrast to the Catholic Church. They were liable because they allowed the abuse to continue by looking the other way. In addition, I think it's important to remember that there abusers in every religion, every race, every state, city and neighborhood. A church, an organization like BSA, etc. can only do so much. Ultimately, we as parents have to oversee the places and the activities our children are involved in and protect them as best we can.

The abusers should be put in jail and a civil suit, I believe, is not to make the abused feel better, but more to hurt the abuser where it counts, in the pocketbook.

There are probably many out there who have gotten away with their dirty deed. Hopefully, this helps open the eyes of other groups that will work harder to screen their people.

come on!? | 2:37 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

My scout leader is in jail for the same reason...did I sue the church or the boy scouts....no....and there are many of us that were just as abused. It is not the organizations fault....they all need to move on with life and quit trying to make an easy buck. I am sure they are hoping the Church will pay something out to quiet this down.

Scouter | 2:41 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I grew up in Scouting in the 1970's. I served for many years as a scout leader and scoutmaster in the 1990's. In all that time I have not seen a whiff of abuse of children. I have seen dedicated men and women freely giving time and money to help youth grow and develop and learn. I have seen many young boys and girls benefit in countless ways from involvement in scouting. I have personally participated in intensive, recurring training given to all scout leaders to help prevent abuse, and to protect youth. I have seen a culture of zero tolerance of any kind of abuse. None of the many individuals I have worked with would ever condone or allow abuse to knowingly continue in the slightest degree. The LDS Church believes fervently in a sacred obligation to protect children. Abusers are indeed disciplined severely. I am skeptical of thse who deliberately mischaracterize good organizations in pursuit of personal gain. Perhaps the lawyers involved should give any money they collect to charitable programs to help victims of abuse and to prevent abuse from occuring.

Check this out about Clark | 3:02 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

You should all read an interesting article about Clark and his background. Taking 1/3 of settlements and winnings is a lot of money especially on 25 million. He is definitely not doing this pro bono. If you want to read the article googl ï¿½strange bedfellow clarkï¿½ and it will be the story on Willamette Week. Heï¿½s apparently been in trouble himself in the past for somewhat similar crimes he is currently defending. If the church is culpable they should be held accountable but church administrators can train and teach all they want but ultimately people do stupid things.

Rachel | 3:03 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

So repentence and forgiveness are only for everyone else BUT a molestor? It's a good thing we don't judge each other in the end.

hey fomo | 3:03 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

It's hard to teach your church members about child abuse when the members don't know about it for several years. We are taught that when a member commits a criminal act, not only should he report himself to his bishop but also to the police.

WE KNOW THAT CHILD ABUSE IS WRONG. EXCESSIVE ALCOHOL IS ALSO WRONG. SO DON'T ACT SO ABRUPTLY IN JUDGING THE CHURCH AND CLAIMING THAT OUR PRIORITIES ARE NOT RIGHT. WE ARE JUST AS MUCH IN FAVOR OF SUSTAINING THE LAWS AS THE NEXT CHRISTIAN CHURCH.

A future problem | 3:21 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

The only thing a lawsuit like this will do is destroy the BSA. That is sad it is a great program that helped me a lot. Mr. Clark please rethink what you are doing. Go after the criminal not the organizations that are trying to help the boys.

Anita | 3:38 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I remember a few years ago when the Catholic church was facing all of its high profile pedophile lawsuits that a lawyer that was instrumental in these lawsuits was quoted in the paper saying, "that the Mormon church was next". and that he was going to "bring them down, so watch out." I wonder if this is the same lawyer?

Fred Vader | 3:47 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

The usual justification for suing organizations like the LDS Church and the Boy Scouts is that supposedly they knew the actions were taking place and did nothing to stop it. So, the lawsuit is supposedly filed to try and wake up these organization and get them to prevent it in the future.

I might believe this supposed argument if these so-called men were also suing their "single mothers" or parents for the same reason. I mean, come on, if the whole church organization knew and the whole boy scout organization knew, then certainly the parents knew and did nothing to stop it. Right?

Frank | 4:18 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Its certain that many of the statements Mr. Clark is letting fly so loosely are overblown. Its lawsuit strategy. Like bartering you make as big a claim as you can get away with so that when it is reduced and chipped away at you still end up with what you really wanted. Sadly the core of truth at the center is these kids were abused by some influential predetors, and that is a big tradegy. Hopefully it is safer now a days than back then.

Anitas answer. | 4:25 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

The question at this point seems not to be whether Clark's mind is open, but what could possibly be going through it. He is a sex offender who has made a mint defending the sexually abused, and he's also a former gay-rights advocate attacking the LDS Boy Scout program because of gay abuse.. A Sex offender that has some serious issues of his own.. Makes my head spin reading his bio.

BigPoet | 4:33 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

He's not an ambulance chaser... he's a sex-offender chaser!

Scouter 2 | 4:47 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

These slip and fall attorneys are as great a menace to society as are the sex preditors, being preditors themselves in their own way. There seems to no cure for either. I have served as a scoutmaster and a scout leader for over 60 years in the LDS church. Presently, at age 81 I lead a group of eleven year old scouts. I have never personaly known of a case of sexual mosestation in all my scout experience, except to read about exception occasionallly in the newspapers. Everyone knows that ESQ. CLARK is out to fill his pockets with the tithes and offerings of the LDS members, who sacrifice to push the good work along, no one even questions it. He obviously hates the church and the scouts too as well. Money is his creed, no doubt about it.

And Yes, some of the posters proclaim their own ignorance by comparing LDS scouting with the widespread sexual abuse by celebic Catholic priests, who join the clergy as gays and opportunists. The systems are as different as night and day. The LDS scout progam is insired by God, the other is not. Active LDS, are you a man hater?

Henry | 4:55 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I work at a state prison where nearly 40% of the offenders are there for sex crimes. I'm sure that the list of organizations that they have belonged to would leave very few, if any, unmentioned. Should they too all be held responsible? I find it totally disqusting what people will do to drag the LDS Church through the mud for personal gain. I have no problem with going after the offender, he needs to be punished. In MHO this is nothing more than attempted robbery and should not be allowed.

Dave | 4:59 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I can recall an LDS stake summer scout camp some 15 years ago in which the Varsity Scoutmaster brought along a friend that all of my peers and myself felt "nervous" around. Nothing really bad happened but he clearly he shouldn't have been there. I think the other adults were worried about offending him. That attitude needs to change and the priority needs to be protecting the scouts. How does $25 million really change things though? I hope there are individuals that will come forward and maintain their credibility by not seeking millions. I believe that type of incredibly noble action would be helpful in protecting our children.

$ | 5:13 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

The reason why the LDS churchs Financials are being demanded is the Court wants to know how much $ they have so they can decide how much of that $ can be used to pay for any pain and suffering expereinced by the victims.

Sounds like some people are GREEDY!

Me | 5:14 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I was recently called as the Cubmaster in my ward. The scouts do background checks on all registered leaders. I don't know how long they have been doing this, but it appears to me that they do not mess around when it comes to adult leaders in scouting.

robo | 5:19 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Bishops are not taught that confidentiality does not apply in cases of abuse.

Junie | 5:35 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

For all of you criticizing Mr. Clark and his team of attorneys (David against the Goliath of the LDS Church)for making a buck...

Let me ask all of you...Do you work for nothing?

Is the soul of one young person whose life will be scarred throughout the remainder of his days on this earth, count for nothing?

The church ought to be spending their BIG easy-come bucks on trying to help people get well and protecting the young against predators, instead of a conference center ($400 million), the JS memorial($50 million), pedestrian plaza ($9 million), temples ad nauseam ($30 million each) and a HUGE MALL ($1 BILLION PLUS).... and you think Kelly Clark has a problem??

There are none so blind and dumb as those who refuse to question these "arms of flesh", or see what's going on under their very own nose.

Don't be so sure! | 5:44 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

As the former wife of an LDS scout leader imprisoned for multiple child molestation, I find your many comments MORE than naive. Some LDS scoutmasters are and have been pedaphiles and indeed have used the LDS Church as a means to their sick perversions. The numbers could be less than in the Catholic Church. However even one child who has been abused by an LDS scoutmaster is too many especially when one looks at the many lives that are affected by just that one abuse victim. It is not just the victim himself that is forever affected but families, friends and even future families of the victim are forever changed. And hopefully anyone who has been affected in any way can get help from qualified therapists. But still - it is a scar for life that keeps coming back to haunt them. Trust me - I consider myself a victim as well though I am only the ex-wife of just "one" LDS child abuser. Get real folks LDS scout leaders are just as guilty of such horrble destruction!

Stupds... | 6:09 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Why aren't they sewing the American government? They are American's and America surely is guilty as well, letting it happen. Sue, Sue, Sue...

By the way, I've NEVER been involved in abuse as a child or leader in my whole life. IT ISN"T EVERYBODY!!!

Maybe I'll sue them for throwing me in with the lot of filth.

Junie: | 6:10 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

What organizations are you affiliated with? I'm going to sue them each for $5 million because you offended me. I know it might sound ridiculous, but does my soul, which has been scarred by your words, count for nothing?

Before you slam me for comparing my getting offended to sexual abuse, I already know that's ridiculous in itself. Making such a comparison is not the point of what I'm writing, so dig a little deeper.

VA | 6:10 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Reply to Think about it.

I am not following you bud. Please clarify

l | 6:14 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

To dontbesosure, you have had an experience where abuse happened. Other people say they've never seen it, and that happens to be their experience. I think we all agree that it happens, but what does that have to do with the church, because my guess is that if the bishop knew about abuse going on, he probably wouldn't have let your husband continue serving in that calling.

Eowyn | 6:16 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

I whole-heartedly agree with "Don't be so sure." Even one abuser harms a great many people in immeasurable ways. It's naive to assume that any group is completely free from this kind of blight. No one disputes that. And the Church and the Boy Scouts agree with you, too. That's why the BSA does background checks and the LDS Church flags the member records of abusers to prevent them from future callings with children.

At issue in the lawsuit is not whether child abusers are ever LDS or Boy Scouts. What's at issue is how liable the scouts and the LDS are. Unless they actually knew about the abuse, I don't see how these organizations could be liable for "ignoring" or "aiding and abetting" it. Nail the abusers themselves to the wall, though!

Hi | 6:24 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Junie...
I certainly don't work for 25 Million! The church has been in the fore-front of disaster relief efforts and humanitarian efforts all over the world. Even with the amount they spend on beautifying the environment, they would be the first to jump to your side if you EVER needed it!!

just me | 6:25 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Many of you are making statements like Don't be so sure making all LDS scoutleaders abusers. Sure there have been some but I can my experience has been when the church is aware they try to correct the situation. Much more now than twenty years ago.
As far as money goes the church pours a lot of money into social service programs to help abusers of all kinds. The money spent on the conference center, JS memorial etc. was money well spent. Millions of people enjoy them. The church spends millions on disasters, poor, helping other churches build their buildings, helping other churches as well as their own in helping the hungry etc. Suing the church won't make them more aware. They are very aware and are doing a tremendous job with the youth of their church.

Wow! | 6:30 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Its amazing how many people are crying about how this possibly cant be compared to the Catholic scandal. OH no, not OUR church...This garbage happens everywhere, in small protestant churches, Catholic churches, EVERYWHERE! Mormons are NOT EXEMPT!..I remember when the scandal rocked the Catholic church my Mormon friends were saying "See that stuff never happens in OUR church, well this article shows that thats not true. Just like the Catholics had accept the ottrocities going on to try and start the healing process, so do mormons. And also, people are saying that the cases are far less than Catholics, well theres over 1 billion Catholics worldwide compared to 10 million mormons,..this sad news needs to wake us all up and protect our children no matter if they are Catholic, Baptist, Hindu, or Mormon

LDS abuse witness | 6:44 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Please don't be so sure that the LDS church really takes action. I witnessed physical abuse in my ward when a woman (on more than one occassion) abused children who were not her own, in the middle of Sacrament Meeting. When I tried to stop it, I was told by two members of the Bishopric, the RS President, and two other High Priests (amongst others) that I was in the wrong. The RS President said, "These things happen, you just need to get over it." I was holding my baby at the time and these people then physically blocked my path as I tried to leave the building. In the end I had to push my way past them. I was completely vulnerable since I was trying to protect my baby and it was very scary. I love the church but this has hurt me. Abuse happens, and sometimes local leaders look away and let it.

hi | 6:48 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

junie...

From the article you quoted above, did you notice where it said most members of the church don't want to loosen liquor laws?

Fifty-six percent of those residents surveyed said they favored changing the laws to make alcohol easier to buy and consume in the city. But city residents who identified themselves as Republicans and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don't want the City Council or the Legislature to loosen the liquor laws, a Dan Jones & Associates survey for the Deseret Morning News and KSL-TV shows.

Perpetrator | 6:49 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Who committed the crime here? If I go over to France and commit a crime, should the victim sue the U.S. government because I'm a U.S. citizen? If I'm on a business trip and commit a crime should the victim sue my employer? People are trying to get rich here because they are selfish. $25 million???? Give me a break. Prosecute the individual, not the organization. If someone was aware of the crime and didn't report it, then prosecute that person. Our society is sue happy. A few sicko's out there have to ruin it for everyone else. All these people suing everyone are just taking money from the honest, middle-class, tax-paying, charitable people.

LDS abuse witness | 6:51 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

By the way the incidents I'm talking about happened this year, not 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. They were very public and played out in the middle of the chapel. I was the only one who stood up for the children. Their own parents were too intimidated.

Alan | 7:22 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

What is this 'The LDS Church is not as bad as the Catholic's are' thing? I mean a sex offender is a sicko no matter what faith he is! Of course the Catholic Church being larger than LDS is going to have more complaints, so comparing to them is a very silly argument. But LDS people, PLEASE, stop always saying, regardless of the subject 'we are not as bad as them' it is so boring. Even if there is only one of these sickos in any organisation it is a terrible thing!

oldtimer | 7:49 p.m. Oct. 4, 2007

Back in the day, there wasn't as much porn as these days. Seriously, let's erradicate the smut and that will go a long way to stopping all of the perverted nonsense from going on. I see people at work who spend half the day looking at porn, its not healthy, it makes people schizo. Stop the porn.

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