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Voucher issue unifies Demos, divides GOP
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Doug Slater | 5:46 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Why is there so much controversy about vouchers..The ultimate goal is to give
the children a quality education and give the parents a tool to use in achieving
that end. Whether the child being educated comes from a wealthy family or a
poor one is irrelevant..there are dumb rich kids and there are smart poor ones.
Right now, with "teaching to the lowest level" none of the potential
geniuses are helped to achieve greatness.
Jason Bourne | 6:23 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
We have a failing public school system which continues to suck down more and
more money while delivering less in terms of well educated graduates.
We continue to fall behind the rest of the world in both the quality of our educational output and the quantity.
Tanya Clay House of the People for the American Way recently declared, "We've never seen a shred of credible evidence that shows school vouchers actually help students learn�
But lets ask the question another way, we've also not seen those now in charge of the public school system having the ability to turn it around. In fact, there seems to be more evidence than not that they're incapable of doing so.
So the question becomes how competition could be any worse than monopoly? How could allowing the consumer of the education product to choose that which they find to best fill their own children�s needs be any worse than the arbitrary standards and needs of the monopoly?
From the side of the political spectrum which claims to be for "choice" this should be an issue for which they are fighting for the choice vouchers bring, not against.
We continue to fall behind the rest of the world in both the quality of our educational output and the quantity.
Tanya Clay House of the People for the American Way recently declared, "We've never seen a shred of credible evidence that shows school vouchers actually help students learn�
But lets ask the question another way, we've also not seen those now in charge of the public school system having the ability to turn it around. In fact, there seems to be more evidence than not that they're incapable of doing so.
So the question becomes how competition could be any worse than monopoly? How could allowing the consumer of the education product to choose that which they find to best fill their own children�s needs be any worse than the arbitrary standards and needs of the monopoly?
From the side of the political spectrum which claims to be for "choice" this should be an issue for which they are fighting for the choice vouchers bring, not against.
Comments continue below
Tongue in Cheek | 6:32 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
My friend heard the Pro Voucher argument on the radio that Hilary Clinton, the
liberal teachers Union and other outlandish groups were against vouchers.
Obviously, the Anti-Voucher group is wasting money advertising. Surely, those winning arguments will be enough for Vouchers to pass.
Obviously, the Anti-Voucher group is wasting money advertising. Surely, those winning arguments will be enough for Vouchers to pass.
Anonymous | 6:44 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Since the Democrats are so unpopular, and it is getting pretty obvious the
Republicans don't represent the interests of Utah, what are we going to
do....vote Libertarian??
Sam Davis | 7:11 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The vouchers are nothing but welfare for the rich. No public money should go to
privatly owned schools.
VOR | 7:44 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The Democrats are not unpopular , just jerry mandred out of power by those who
belive that have a representative republic is just fine, as long as only their
view is represented.
Jason Boure what do you define as failing?
The R's set the rules for the schools the teachers follow the rules and get the blame when the children fail to learn .
Volunteer at you local school. That would do more to help the kids than anything else.
Jason Boure what do you define as failing?
The R's set the rules for the schools the teachers follow the rules and get the blame when the children fail to learn .
Volunteer at you local school. That would do more to help the kids than anything else.
mike | 7:46 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Jason, competition is good, competition is healthy, vouchers are not
competition. Private schools can select their product, public schools
can't. If an individual has serious disabilities which would affect the
school's bottom line, a private school can turn him down, public
school's can't. If a student is a holy terror in class, a private
school can simply get rid of him, a public school can't. Private schools
don't have to follow a truck load of (expensive) Federal guidelines, public
schools do. Competition means you have a level playing field. If, in a pick up
basketball game, I get to handpick and select the Jazz and you have to take
whoever happens to be wandering around the park that day, I don't call that
competition, and I'm not sure what lessons can be drawn from it.
Jake | 7:50 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
If private schools were required to take a cross section of the area students
and keep them it may work. Many times private schools reject the difficult
students leaving them to the public schools.
There is no competition when public schoools are required to take all students requardless of ablilty, disability, parental involvement, or disclipline (or lack of).
Vouchers only help those with the financial ability to send their children to private school. The poor still cannot afford private schools.
There is no competition when public schoools are required to take all students requardless of ablilty, disability, parental involvement, or disclipline (or lack of).
Vouchers only help those with the financial ability to send their children to private school. The poor still cannot afford private schools.
James | 7:51 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Sam, your comment is passionate but doesn't stand on its merits.
Welfare for the rich? The voucher is designed for the exact opposite. It is welfare for the poor.
Only the poorest among us will get $3,000. And the rich, they get $500 based on the logic that the rich pay the most in taxes so it is only fair that they get something back, IF they decide to send their child to a private school.
So a poor person may pay nothing in income taxes, after all write-offs, etc. And a few hundred a year in property taxes, through home ownership or nothing if they rent. In return they will receive $3,000.
One of my friends paid over $12,000 in state income taxes last year. They also paid $9,000 in property taxes. They are quite wealthy, paid over $21,000 into public education and they get a subsidy of a $500 voucher!
For them their $500 voucher is more a token of appreciation for the other $21,000 they paid into the system.
For the poor person the $3,000 voucher is a real chance to do something different.
And plenty of private schools work with $3,000. More once it passes.
Welfare for the rich? The voucher is designed for the exact opposite. It is welfare for the poor.
Only the poorest among us will get $3,000. And the rich, they get $500 based on the logic that the rich pay the most in taxes so it is only fair that they get something back, IF they decide to send their child to a private school.
So a poor person may pay nothing in income taxes, after all write-offs, etc. And a few hundred a year in property taxes, through home ownership or nothing if they rent. In return they will receive $3,000.
One of my friends paid over $12,000 in state income taxes last year. They also paid $9,000 in property taxes. They are quite wealthy, paid over $21,000 into public education and they get a subsidy of a $500 voucher!
For them their $500 voucher is more a token of appreciation for the other $21,000 they paid into the system.
For the poor person the $3,000 voucher is a real chance to do something different.
And plenty of private schools work with $3,000. More once it passes.
Anonymous | 8:03 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
This issue is much simpler than it seems. It is a single issue -- UNIONS! The
teachers unions are very stong, becoming stronger, hate vouchers, and support
the democrats who are notorious for todying to union wishes no matter how stupid
and outlandish. Here in California, the voucher children out test the public
school students in every way. My children are raised, but there is no way I
would put them in a California public school today whnen the main subjkect is
socialism and the United States, nee President Bush, is bad. My Florida son
refused to put his children in public schools there for the same reason.
Wherever there are unions, you will find socialism, and right there with them,
democrats who, no matter what the guise, liberal,socialist, progressive
democrat, communist, all believe the same thing -- only they are bright enough
to rule and if everyone else will just give them all their money, everything
will be fine. There is a radio commentator who states, simply: "Liberalism
is a mental disorder." I only wish I had thought of it first.
Art Vandalay | 8:09 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The pro voucher crowd insists that vouchers will give parents options in how
they educate their children. Truth be told, parents already have many options
concerning educational opportunities. Because of Utah's open enrollment
policy if a parent does not like the school their child is attending they can
simply transfer to any other public school in the state, if there is space.
Also, there are many public charter schools available that provide a wide range
of educational opportunities.
I am not a fan of the UEA, NEA, Hilary Clinton, Move on.Org, public school bureaucracies, George Soros, Ted Kennedy, Utah Democratic Party, or any other organized group opposing vouchers. But lets face it, this voucher law was created by right wing, Eagle Forum type zealots, and enacted into law by their dupes in the legislature. As is common with the state legislature, this law was not carefully crafted or debated sufficiently. It is fine with me if people want to send their kids to private school, but don't make me pay for that choice.
I am not a fan of the UEA, NEA, Hilary Clinton, Move on.Org, public school bureaucracies, George Soros, Ted Kennedy, Utah Democratic Party, or any other organized group opposing vouchers. But lets face it, this voucher law was created by right wing, Eagle Forum type zealots, and enacted into law by their dupes in the legislature. As is common with the state legislature, this law was not carefully crafted or debated sufficiently. It is fine with me if people want to send their kids to private school, but don't make me pay for that choice.
True colors | 8:16 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Since we hear from Jason often on this topic my bet is that he is a member of a
PAC. His venom about our failing schools is very tiresome. Mike, on the other
hyand, hits the nail squarely on thehead.
Vouchers Are No Choice | 8:36 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
If vouchers really increased "Choice" and would improve education I
would whole heartedly support them, but they don't. They don't help
the poor, because the poor usually can't make up the difference between
what most private schools cost and for what the vouchers pay. There are very few
that it actually helps. I am a very faithful republican, and am conservative,
but this voucher issues is merely an attempted first step in doing away with
public education. The goal of those pushing this issue is to privatize
education. If we allow market pressures to be the guiding force for education,
the poor will have even less opportunities for education than they already have
Truer colors | 8:37 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Mike makes a good argument for vouchers. Count me in.
Russ | 8:39 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The real issue here is whether to allow the monopoly held by the present
"in control" group to maintain their monopoly or not.
In the case of these vouchers, it isn't even a significant impact on that monopoly, but ANY threat to their control is going to be taken seriously, as evidenced by the millions that NEA, UEA are putting into killing the voucher program.
So, if you support allowing the existing control over our (some say failing) education system, then vote against vouchers. If, on the other hand, you feel that some limited (and it is limited) competition is a healthy thing, then vote for vouchers.
In the case of these vouchers, it isn't even a significant impact on that monopoly, but ANY threat to their control is going to be taken seriously, as evidenced by the millions that NEA, UEA are putting into killing the voucher program.
So, if you support allowing the existing control over our (some say failing) education system, then vote against vouchers. If, on the other hand, you feel that some limited (and it is limited) competition is a healthy thing, then vote for vouchers.
Russ | 8:40 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The real issue here is whether to allow the monopoly held by the present
"in control" group to maintain their monopoly or not.
In the case of these vouchers, it isn't even a significant impact on that monopoly, but ANY threat to their control is going to be taken seriously, as evidenced by the millions that NEA, UEA are putting into killing the voucher program.
So, if you support allowing the existing control over our (some say failing) education system, then vote against vouchers. If, on the other hand, you feel that some limited (and it is limited) competition is a healthy thing, then vote for vouchers.
In the case of these vouchers, it isn't even a significant impact on that monopoly, but ANY threat to their control is going to be taken seriously, as evidenced by the millions that NEA, UEA are putting into killing the voucher program.
So, if you support allowing the existing control over our (some say failing) education system, then vote against vouchers. If, on the other hand, you feel that some limited (and it is limited) competition is a healthy thing, then vote for vouchers.
Art Vandalay has blinders on!! | 8:41 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Hey Art, you last statement is very curious...'..but don't make me pay
for that choice..'
Oh, so you would force everyone else to pay for YOUR choice? What is the difference???! With private schools, I get to use MY money how I want. With public schools, I have NO choice...and I am FORCED to do it.
Oh, so you would force everyone else to pay for YOUR choice? What is the difference???! With private schools, I get to use MY money how I want. With public schools, I have NO choice...and I am FORCED to do it.
Chuck | 8:44 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Vouchers are just another government subsidy. It is hypocritical for supposed
conservatives to speak against big government and then want to expand it into
the private schools. No wonder it is dividing my party.
Instereo | 8:47 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Democrats are united against vouchers for a number of reasons. Vouchers are a
government entitlement, mixes church and state, subsidizes private schools, and
because they don't support for profit education. Republicans are divided
because their leadership is out of touch with their constituants. Most people in
Utah believe and are pleased with their public schools. They don't
understand how giving tax dollars to people for making private school choices is
going to make them better when they can't afford to send their children to
the same school even with a tax credit. They don't believe in subsidizing
private education. I also think both concerned democrats and concerned
republicans that see problems in education get involved with their public
schools in either voluteering, PTOs, or even on school boards. They don't
run away from the problems and pull their children out of school, they fix the
problems. I'm going to vote NO on referendum 1 because I believe the
pro-voucher supports are not being honest and just being emotional in their
arguements and campaigns for vouchers. I believe the anti-voucher people are
saying how most of us in Utah, democrats and republicans, really feel.
Retired | 8:48 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
There is one more potential problem with vouchers. What if the private school
fails, or the parents decide they don't like it after all, or the darling
child hates it? Could the student move mid-year? Back to a public school?
What happens to the voucher money? Has anyone thought about this?
What happens to the voucher money? Has anyone thought about this?
James | 8:57 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
The 'picking the Jazz line-up' is a good analogy but clearly misses
the market.
I am starting to think that the next education law we have the legislature pass is that each teacher must take a basic Econ 101 in college and get at least a C.
This very arguement was used against charter schools. Essentially, they would cream: take only the smart kids, kick the rest out. Studies have been performed nationally that disprove that. The most recent by Harvard.
In fact, studies show that charter schools are more diverse in student body as well as curricular focus. Translation, they teach the troubled kids by identifying the specific needs and do quite well at it.
In fact, since charter schools are started by parents we see that the parent started a school that fits their childs alternate needs, and in so doing create an environment for many troubled kids with those same needs.
What this means is that many charter schools focus specifically on trouble kids: ESL, Sped, autism, etc, etc. Private schools will do the same.
By the very nature of the Free Markets, private schools will do the same and will serve all students that take vouchers.
I am starting to think that the next education law we have the legislature pass is that each teacher must take a basic Econ 101 in college and get at least a C.
This very arguement was used against charter schools. Essentially, they would cream: take only the smart kids, kick the rest out. Studies have been performed nationally that disprove that. The most recent by Harvard.
In fact, studies show that charter schools are more diverse in student body as well as curricular focus. Translation, they teach the troubled kids by identifying the specific needs and do quite well at it.
In fact, since charter schools are started by parents we see that the parent started a school that fits their childs alternate needs, and in so doing create an environment for many troubled kids with those same needs.
What this means is that many charter schools focus specifically on trouble kids: ESL, Sped, autism, etc, etc. Private schools will do the same.
By the very nature of the Free Markets, private schools will do the same and will serve all students that take vouchers.
Citizens for a One Party State | 9:17 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
One party rule--Now and Forever. VOTE REPUBLICAN!
mike | 9:42 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Actually Jason, I took Econ in college and got A's. Charter schools are
still public schools, they still have to abide by all the federal guidelines,
they still have to take the handicapped, the disabled, the autistic, the
unprofittable. Charter schools do not have to worry about a bottom line.
Private schools are a business, by definition they worry about the bottom line.
That is fantastic for a car dealership or a Wendy's franchise. That's
not necessarily good for the public welfare. Imagine, Jason, if you had a
restaurant which had to abide by all the food and health regulations of the
government, then a restaurant was opened up which was exempted from all the
regulations you had to follow. Would you consider that fair competition?
James | 9:43 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Chuck, you are mixing principles here. If you want to be entirely pure about
this then the whole public education system is socialism. It lives off of the
mantra of, "From each according to their ability, to each according to
their need."
We make people pay according to how much money they have. In fact, we make them pay if they have kids or not. Eveyone pays, not everyone uses the system.
So within that frame work we are trying to create sound economic principles: Choice.
If you are going to be pure about your arguements, avoid all subsidies, etc then what YOU need to do is argue for a complete breakup of the public school system. Make it a true 'pay as you go' system.
Until you make that arguement, your other words are slightly unqualified.
And on this side of the debate, we know that vouchers won't destroy the public system. It hasn't anywhere vouchers have been implemented. What has happened is the system overall improves. Harvard has studied this several times over the last decade and every study shows that.
Work within the context of education for all, with as many sound economic principles as possible.
We make people pay according to how much money they have. In fact, we make them pay if they have kids or not. Eveyone pays, not everyone uses the system.
So within that frame work we are trying to create sound economic principles: Choice.
If you are going to be pure about your arguements, avoid all subsidies, etc then what YOU need to do is argue for a complete breakup of the public school system. Make it a true 'pay as you go' system.
Until you make that arguement, your other words are slightly unqualified.
And on this side of the debate, we know that vouchers won't destroy the public system. It hasn't anywhere vouchers have been implemented. What has happened is the system overall improves. Harvard has studied this several times over the last decade and every study shows that.
Work within the context of education for all, with as many sound economic principles as possible.
FactChecker | 10:02 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
James,
You love to throw out statements as facts without any substantiation.
How many charter schools specialize in ESL populations? How many charter schools specialize in Special Needs children? What percentage does that make?
Guess what, by law, all public schools have to provide services for these students. Charter schools are public schools. The only difference is that they are freed up from some of the regulations of public schools. Therefore, not relevant in the market argument.
The point is not that the private schools will skim off the best students. The point is that they can deny entrance to students who will detract from their bottom line. Students who will be more costly to educate. Competition in this argument is a fallacy.
Let's say with both produce a widget and I can control the raw materials that come in and you must use what ever is delivered to your plant. Now we are both judged on the outputs or the quality of our widgets. Where is the competition in that?
You love to throw out statements as facts without any substantiation.
How many charter schools specialize in ESL populations? How many charter schools specialize in Special Needs children? What percentage does that make?
Guess what, by law, all public schools have to provide services for these students. Charter schools are public schools. The only difference is that they are freed up from some of the regulations of public schools. Therefore, not relevant in the market argument.
The point is not that the private schools will skim off the best students. The point is that they can deny entrance to students who will detract from their bottom line. Students who will be more costly to educate. Competition in this argument is a fallacy.
Let's say with both produce a widget and I can control the raw materials that come in and you must use what ever is delivered to your plant. Now we are both judged on the outputs or the quality of our widgets. Where is the competition in that?
Jeff | 10:18 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I am tired of reading about how much money is being spent on promoting or
opposing School Vouchers.
Is anyone aware of an article written that talks about the facts of the issue regarding:
1) What are the tiered income levels that receiving $500, $1000, $2000, $3000?
2) How are the vouchers paid? (Directly to the private school, through a tax credit, etc.)
3) For the Nov. 6 vote, does the majority win or does it need a certain percentage (i.e. 2/3rd majority) of votes to overturn it?
4) Are Utah public schools being funded with some federal money? If so, how much? And if so, when a child is removed from the public school records do we lose this money from the state's public school system? And if so, does the $7000+ amount being stated as the dollars funded per child include the federal money?
5) Does anyone know how the $7000+ is spent per child? (fixed costs (fixed costs of schools, teacher's salary, supplies, etc.)
Is anyone aware of an article written that talks about the facts of the issue regarding:
1) What are the tiered income levels that receiving $500, $1000, $2000, $3000?
2) How are the vouchers paid? (Directly to the private school, through a tax credit, etc.)
3) For the Nov. 6 vote, does the majority win or does it need a certain percentage (i.e. 2/3rd majority) of votes to overturn it?
4) Are Utah public schools being funded with some federal money? If so, how much? And if so, when a child is removed from the public school records do we lose this money from the state's public school system? And if so, does the $7000+ amount being stated as the dollars funded per child include the federal money?
5) Does anyone know how the $7000+ is spent per child? (fixed costs (fixed costs of schools, teacher's salary, supplies, etc.)
Quoting "Alfie Kohn" 2004 | 10:36 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
What's at stake?
"Apart from the obvious bonanza for the giant companies that design and score standardized tests, �hundreds of �supplemental service providers� have already lined up to offer tutoring, including Sylvan, Kaplan Inc. and Princeton Review Inc. � Kaplan says revenue for its elementary- and secondary-school division has doubled since No Child Left Behind passed.�"
"A few months ago, People for the American Way reported that the administration has funneled more than $75 million in taxpayer funds to pro-voucher groups and miscellaneous for-profit entities. Among them is William Bennett�s latest gamble, known as K12 -- a company specializing in on-line education for homeschoolers. (Finn sits on the board of directors). �Standards� plus �freedom� may eventually add up to considerable revenue, then. In the meantime, the Department of Education is happy to ease the transition: A school choice pilot program in Arkansas received $11.5 million to buy a curriculum from Bennett�s outfit, and a virtual charter school in Pennsylvania affiliated with K12 got $2.5 million."
Private ventures will be accountable to stockholders, standardized tests and profit margins. Students will no longer be the focus of education. We are pawns in the middle of a dangerous and expensive game.
"Apart from the obvious bonanza for the giant companies that design and score standardized tests, �hundreds of �supplemental service providers� have already lined up to offer tutoring, including Sylvan, Kaplan Inc. and Princeton Review Inc. � Kaplan says revenue for its elementary- and secondary-school division has doubled since No Child Left Behind passed.�"
"A few months ago, People for the American Way reported that the administration has funneled more than $75 million in taxpayer funds to pro-voucher groups and miscellaneous for-profit entities. Among them is William Bennett�s latest gamble, known as K12 -- a company specializing in on-line education for homeschoolers. (Finn sits on the board of directors). �Standards� plus �freedom� may eventually add up to considerable revenue, then. In the meantime, the Department of Education is happy to ease the transition: A school choice pilot program in Arkansas received $11.5 million to buy a curriculum from Bennett�s outfit, and a virtual charter school in Pennsylvania affiliated with K12 got $2.5 million."
Private ventures will be accountable to stockholders, standardized tests and profit margins. Students will no longer be the focus of education. We are pawns in the middle of a dangerous and expensive game.
Choice | 10:48 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Euphemism:
the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant; also : the expression so substituted.
Choice is used as a substitute for abortion.
Choice is now being used instead of the establishment of a voucher system, government spending that promotes segregation, classism, racism, and another way for big business to rip off the government and the taxpayer. Does anyone remember years ago how much the military spent on a hammer from a private vendor?
Can we afford to be ripped off in the name of wanting the best for our children?
the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant; also : the expression so substituted.
Choice is used as a substitute for abortion.
Choice is now being used instead of the establishment of a voucher system, government spending that promotes segregation, classism, racism, and another way for big business to rip off the government and the taxpayer. Does anyone remember years ago how much the military spent on a hammer from a private vendor?
Can we afford to be ripped off in the name of wanting the best for our children?
James | 10:48 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Fact checker: How many provide those services in Utah? I can think of three ESL
oriented schools and two Autistic schools; in both cases, more planned. So we
have 5 specialized schools out of 55, that makes almost 10% focused just in
those areas.
And yes, you are right that they are public schools so they are required to take all students. The focus happens to be those areas so a majority of students happen to fit those areas. It becomes a parent selection process. The parents select the school that fit the needs of their child the best and register their student for that charter school.
And if you look at the population of specialized charter schools across the country it remains pretty consistent.
As for your widget comparison, that is sound. Now let's open up the market so that specialized widget manufacturers come in and work with the material that is less than ideal. You have limited your example to only two manufacturers trying to make the same product based upon different inputs.
With different manufacturers making varied products with different material. NCLB creates a model of uniformity. We both know that all kids are different.
And yes, you are right that they are public schools so they are required to take all students. The focus happens to be those areas so a majority of students happen to fit those areas. It becomes a parent selection process. The parents select the school that fit the needs of their child the best and register their student for that charter school.
And if you look at the population of specialized charter schools across the country it remains pretty consistent.
As for your widget comparison, that is sound. Now let's open up the market so that specialized widget manufacturers come in and work with the material that is less than ideal. You have limited your example to only two manufacturers trying to make the same product based upon different inputs.
With different manufacturers making varied products with different material. NCLB creates a model of uniformity. We both know that all kids are different.
Larry Lee | 10:59 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Gee, what a shocker! Of course the Democrats are completely united when it
comes to big corrupt unions, higher taxes, and more government control over all
of our lives. This is the center of their lives and existence.
Larry | 11:18 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Vouchers will create higher taxes, corrupt businesses, and less control.
I wonder if Haliburton will get into the educational ring?
I wonder if Haliburton will get into the educational ring?
no to school vouchers | 11:25 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Vote "NO" to school vouchers.
Lee | 11:27 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
A former teacher is suing Alpine School Dist. [see today's DesNews article]
"District-itis" is the monopoly Utah's districts have, which is
as bad as the Oil Barons! A parent or teacher has no voice in education.
Imagine a group of parents threatening a district with pulling their kids out
and using vouchers. Suddenly the district hears MONEY lost. They will listen
for a change.
Anonymous | 11:32 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Nationally, Republicans are mostly united in favor of vouchers. This story just
shows that we have a lot of RINOs in office here in Utah .... Democrats dressed
up as Republicans. Time for a house cleaning.
Tongue in Cheek | 11:53 a.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I think we should all look at shining examples from Private education. George
Bush is a very elloquent orator, and Paris Hilton is the type of role-model for
young girls to look up to. The best part of the Paris example is she was in the
Private system in Utah.
The point is Vouchers won't guarantee a quality education any more than the existance of Public schools. Each side is going to have shinning and dull examples.
The point is Vouchers won't guarantee a quality education any more than the existance of Public schools. Each side is going to have shinning and dull examples.
Steven Jarvis | 12:00 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Response to Retired:
If the parents withdraw or the school closes the child will go back to the public school in most cases. The Money for Vouchers is given out quarterly, so not all the money is gone. However, no money is given to the Public school after October 1st, so if the move happens after that these Private-schoolers turned Public again have the potential to strain the Public systems budget.
This is the single thing in education funding that the legislators refuse to address---funding the Public system on a quarterly basis---that has crippled explosive growth west-side schools. They get funds for 1,000 kids, but then have 1,200 that they actually must teach. Yet with Vouchers they chose to do it.
If the parents withdraw or the school closes the child will go back to the public school in most cases. The Money for Vouchers is given out quarterly, so not all the money is gone. However, no money is given to the Public school after October 1st, so if the move happens after that these Private-schoolers turned Public again have the potential to strain the Public systems budget.
This is the single thing in education funding that the legislators refuse to address---funding the Public system on a quarterly basis---that has crippled explosive growth west-side schools. They get funds for 1,000 kids, but then have 1,200 that they actually must teach. Yet with Vouchers they chose to do it.
Steven Jarvis | 12:03 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
There is at least one Charter school that specializes in Austism (Spectrum
Academy) and another one or two that have students with disabilities as a major
part of their focus, but i don't the specifics.
We need more.
The question should be how many Private schools do?
We need more.
The question should be how many Private schools do?
anonymous | 12:32 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
While I appreciate that you feel all Republicans feel the way you do, when polls
have been taken in areas as diverse as St. Petersburg and Pittsburgh, the
Republican Party has been split fairly down the middle as to vouchers. Now, I
feel like you can be a good Republican and support vouchers and a good
Republican and be against vouchers. The "all real Republicans think like
me" seems way to similar to the "all real Christians think ..."
that I heard too much on my mission. I wasn't aware that vouchers became a
litmus test for someone's "republicaness." When was that meeting
held? I must have missed it.
wrz | 2:15 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
If vouchers passes the $500/$3,000 tuition allowance is just the foot in the
door. In out years the allowance will creep up to full funding for all private
students, rich or poor. Mark my words.
kerrybishop54 | 3:04 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I just had a thought. If the marketplace is going to control the quality of
private schools, what happens to the kids in the private school that fails? Are
they just out of luck? They get the rest of the quarter off? Or is the public
system going to be required to help out? With no funding. Gee, sounds like a
real fair system to me . . . sarcasm intended.
Steven Cottrell | 3:35 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Public schools are required to publish test score results, including state core
tests, No Child Left Behind, and nationally normed tests. With less than 2/3 of
the national average funding per student, it is amazing that Utah public school
results have always been at or above national average results.
Apparently the same extensive testing and reporting requirement will not be imposed on private schools who receive state funds under the voucher plan. It seems that where state funds are used, a consistent accountability requirement should be imposed.
Apparently the same extensive testing and reporting requirement will not be imposed on private schools who receive state funds under the voucher plan. It seems that where state funds are used, a consistent accountability requirement should be imposed.
Tired | 4:18 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
I am tired of all the complaining from the union majority in this state.Give the
voucher system a chance for a few years.If we arnt producing better students we
can cancel out.Most of my Grand children are recieving better education in
private schools out of state.In the long run it will save money because the
private schools are only asking a third of what it costs in a public school.
There parents also pay taxes in this beautiful state.
Comparative Analysis | 4:31 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
"Existing school choice programs have already provided evidence that
increased benefits and options become available to students after choice is
implemented. In Florida, for example, where students are able to attend private
schools under several choice programs, the number of private schools in the
state has increased as school choice has become more widespread. Private
entrepreneurs and philanthropic foundations have poured more than $76 million
into Milwaukee's private schools since school choice was implemented there.
Sixty-five schools in Milwaukee have completed capital expansion projects
indicating that educational entrepreneurs do respond to increased market
demands."
From:
What Does a Voucher Buy?
A Closer Look at the Cost of Private Schools
by David F. Salisbury, published by the Cato Institute,
August 28, 2003
From:
What Does a Voucher Buy?
A Closer Look at the Cost of Private Schools
by David F. Salisbury, published by the Cato Institute,
August 28, 2003
Comparative Analysis | 4:48 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
"Existing school choice programs have already provided evidence that
increased benefits and options become available to students after choice is
implemented. In Florida, for example, where students are able to attend private
schools under several choice programs, the number of private schools in the
state has increased as school choice has become more widespread. Private
entrepreneurs and philanthropic foundations have poured more than $76 million
into Milwaukee's private schools since school choice was implemented there.
Sixty-five schools in Milwaukee have completed capital expansion projects
indicating that educational entrepreneurs do respond to increased market
demands."
From:
What Does a Voucher Buy?
A Closer Look at the Cost of Private Schools
by David F. Salisbury, published by the Cato Institute,
August 28, 2003
From:
What Does a Voucher Buy?
A Closer Look at the Cost of Private Schools
by David F. Salisbury, published by the Cato Institute,
August 28, 2003
Chuck L | 4:50 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
It just makes sense to me that competition will increase the quality level.
Look what happened to BYU and Utah football once they started to compete with
the "big boys". Our current education system is bloated and self
centered. If the private schools start to take away some of their prized
students and the dollars follow, I suspect they will lose their complacency and
find a way to compete.
tongue and Cheek | 5:07 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Tired,
Utah still has a law on the books that makes Whaling illegal. Your idea of just giving a costly program a few years to try out and see what happens is precisely what the power brokers behind Vouchers want.
By that point so much money will have been wasted, kids lives disrupted, and the out of state interests that have been pushing this agenda will be filthy rich. Our children deserve better. We should not be placing them in jeopardy just so a few guys can make a buck off them.
Utah still has a law on the books that makes Whaling illegal. Your idea of just giving a costly program a few years to try out and see what happens is precisely what the power brokers behind Vouchers want.
By that point so much money will have been wasted, kids lives disrupted, and the out of state interests that have been pushing this agenda will be filthy rich. Our children deserve better. We should not be placing them in jeopardy just so a few guys can make a buck off them.
Steve Jarvis | 5:24 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Answers to Jeff:
The State gets money from the Federal government for certain school initiatives. Title 1 and NCLB are the two I can think of. They have strings attached but often not enough funding to tie those strings up. Other revenue from fund raising, Trust lands, School District taxes (those go to Bond debt) do help.
Schools are expensive with set costs. These can include rent such as the case of Charters, or paying off the Construction Bond that was used to build the building. Then you have all the mundane costs like gas, electricity, phone and waste management before you purchase materials and books. After that you hire staff.
The State funds all public schools based on October 1st enrollment. The amount given is around $2,500 for Charter Schools, and around $4,500 for District ones. Kids that enter the system after that day do not have money dedicated to them.
Vouchers are funded quarterly. The bills did not make clear whether the money went to the school or the parent. The bills weren't very clear on most points. I had the impression the funds were sent to the school in the parents name.
The State gets money from the Federal government for certain school initiatives. Title 1 and NCLB are the two I can think of. They have strings attached but often not enough funding to tie those strings up. Other revenue from fund raising, Trust lands, School District taxes (those go to Bond debt) do help.
Schools are expensive with set costs. These can include rent such as the case of Charters, or paying off the Construction Bond that was used to build the building. Then you have all the mundane costs like gas, electricity, phone and waste management before you purchase materials and books. After that you hire staff.
The State funds all public schools based on October 1st enrollment. The amount given is around $2,500 for Charter Schools, and around $4,500 for District ones. Kids that enter the system after that day do not have money dedicated to them.
Vouchers are funded quarterly. The bills did not make clear whether the money went to the school or the parent. The bills weren't very clear on most points. I had the impression the funds were sent to the school in the parents name.
Steve Jarvis | 5:35 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
For all the paid activists,
There is no monopoly in Utah education. There are three teachers unions for example, choices galore with Private, Charter and hundreds of local District schools for parents to choose from. Parents also have the option to home school.
A monopoly is an entity that does not allow fair competition in the marketplace. Giving Private schools state funding while ignoring accountability, testing, licensed teachers through vouchers is an attempt to establish an elitist educational monopoly. Who will suffer most if we create such a monopoly? The poor and middle class. They will be shut out along with the ESL, special ed and any other undesirables.
There is no monopoly in Utah education. There are three teachers unions for example, choices galore with Private, Charter and hundreds of local District schools for parents to choose from. Parents also have the option to home school.
A monopoly is an entity that does not allow fair competition in the marketplace. Giving Private schools state funding while ignoring accountability, testing, licensed teachers through vouchers is an attempt to establish an elitist educational monopoly. Who will suffer most if we create such a monopoly? The poor and middle class. They will be shut out along with the ESL, special ed and any other undesirables.
Steve Jarvis | 5:41 p.m. Sept. 27, 2007
Comparative Analysis,
Milwaukee's voucher program isn't a gold standard that a Pro Voucher player uses. The substance of fraud and failure of schools to teach academic standards is the most powerful argument on the side of voting the bills off the books. I'd send a memo off to who ever gave you the quote telling them it was going to give plenty of fodder to the other side.
Does anyone actually research these things before?
Milwaukee's voucher program isn't a gold standard that a Pro Voucher player uses. The substance of fraud and failure of schools to teach academic standards is the most powerful argument on the side of voting the bills off the books. I'd send a memo off to who ever gave you the quote telling them it was going to give plenty of fodder to the other side.
Does anyone actually research these things before?
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Injecting competition into the business of making widgets is fine, but I think it would be sad to experiment with children as products without serious academic consideration of the Milwaukee and Chile voucher systems. Utah is currently doing quite well. Think twice, Utah.
Deseret News, please bring to light the expert opinions of quantitative policy analysts in education who have considered the voucher question. There will be some conflicting opinions, sure, but I imagine that a broad meta-analysis of credible opinions will prove useful to this important decision. So far, much of what has been said is political banter. Let's examine research.