Reader comments
Voucher 'threat' sparks debate

We have a failing public school system which continues to suck down more and more money while delivering less in terms of well educated graduates.

We continue to fall behind the rest of the world in both the quality of our educational output and the quantity.

Tanya Clay House of the ultra-liberal People for the American Way recently declared, "We've never seen a shred of credible evidence that shows school vouchers actually help students learn. While all public schools must demonstrate success under No Child Left Behind, private schools are not held to the same level of accountability for their performance."

But lets ask the question another way, speaking of those same shreds of evidence, we've not seen many that point to those now in charge of that public school system having the ability to turn that around. In fact, there seems to be more evidence than not that they're incapable of doing so.

So the question becomes how competition could be any worse than monopoly? How could allowing the consumer of the education product to choose that which they find to best fill their own children�s needs be any worse than the arbitrary standards and needs of the monopoly?

Wow! Dave Clark and Steve Urqhardt have really got an anti-public-education agenda. These two southern Utah reps have been hard at "work" undermining public education. And now the anti-teacher/pro-voucher camp is trying to raise $300,000 just to push along the CAMPAIGN for vouchers. A lot of money wasted on a bad idea. And just where are they planning to come up with the cash to fund the actual vouchers? That's right, folks, from the coffers of our already over-strained, under-funded public education system. We already have a teacher shortage because these VERY guys, our representatives, cannot put together enough money to pay our teachers or provide learning materials for our students. And don't forget last year's sweeping cuts to teacher retirement benefits which further discouraged an already shrinking number of prospective teachers from entering the profession. And now they're going to take out MORE money to fund vouchers. Does this make ANY SENSE?

Dave doesn't want us to "misinterpret" his comments as a "threat". Of course not. We might see his agenda a little too clearly. The voters of southern Utah might get smart and stop supporting him. Come on, southern Utahns, let's vote this guy OUT OF OFFICE!!!

Is the political battle over school vouchers in Utah starting to interfere with your child's education? Well, that's what one Utah parent is wondering after - according to her - she was asked for an anti-voucher contribution during a recent parent teacher conference. On November 6th, Utah voters will be asked to vote for or against a new voucher plan. That plan would provide up to 3 thousand dollars of state money for parents who want to send children to private school. But now one parent claims those against Referendum One may be crossing a line. Here's what she says happened when she went to a parent teacher conference last week. The parent claims, "We went through about ten minutes of the conference and then she handed me an envelope and asked me if I was interested in donating money to the fund against the voucher system." The parent also says she was stunned when asked to contribute money during the parent teacher conference and then when she refused, says a heated exchange took place. "When I said no I'm not interested, I support the vouchers, she continued to go on and tell me why I was wrong�

Jason, you don't seem to understand that there already IS competition to public schools. There is no monopoly. You, the "consumer of the education product" already have choice. Private schools already exist. Charter schools already exist. The question is about who should fund your choice.

Part of that question regards the standards to which all of those choices are or are not held. Currently, private and charter schools are not held to the same standards as public schools. Private school teachers DO NOT HAVE TO BE LICENSED. Did you know that? Yep. Private schools can hire any Joe Schmoe off the street to teach your kids. When private and charter schools are held to the same standards as public schools, then it might make more sense to discuss dipping into already depleted public education funds to pay for your individual choice.

And that's the real question. Is it the responsibility of the rest of us as taxpayers to further deplete the limited funds of public education to pay for your personal choice? I think not.

If you prefer private or charter school for your child, that's fine. You are, afterall, the "consumer." And YOU can pay for it.

Regarding vouchers, "When in doubt, go without!"

Hearsay and second-hand information...
Is anyone who comments here smart enough to provide references, names, facts, and other small details?
Sounds like suburbian folk-tales to me.

I really hate unsubstantiated claims such as the one made by ABC 4 News. If you're going to make a statement like yours, then give us the actual facts with names, schools, etc. At least that way we can verify instead of just spreading rumors.

And for those of you who are so busy talking about failing schools, when was the last time you truly helped and volunteered in your school instead of just loudly proclaiming it was a failure. Schools fail when parents, teachers, and children aren't working together as a team. Are you a good team member or just a complainer?

to Jason.

A "failing public school system?" In Utah? By what measure do you figure this? Is it the ultra-stringent NCLB that labels a school as "failing" if one student fails a single test? Statistics, and most parents, will tell you that Utah's public schools are doing an outstanding job. Much better than the national average, in fact.
Of course there are failing students. There have always been failing students and there always will be. Some students will fail even in a private school.

Please refrain from spreading the myth that Utah's schools are failing. Go to your child's parent/teacher conferences next week and ask the principal for some hard facts. You will be enlightened.

The public education system is failing? Jason Bourne, please don't make broad generalizations that can't be supported by any sort of factual data. Children in public schools continuosly out perform their counter parts on AP tests and national tests. Your logic is flawed as well. The voucher system does not create new schools and break the "monopoly." Private schools exist now and you are free to enroll your child in one of the many private schools at any time. How did you lose the opportunity to do so? Not having a voucher law does not prevent you from choosing alternative schools. If you are rich enough to afford this "special" education already, the 500$ the government throuws at you under the voucher program is nothing more than your light bill each month. Let's not kid ourselves, the voucher system is nothing more than a tax rebate for the wealthiest citizens of Utah. The 3000$ will not allow most people to send their children to private schools. There will be no change in the schools, just the ammount of money in the pockets of those that already send their children to private schools.

Jasone Bourne,

Prove it. You said our Utah schools are a failing system. Now you and your other paid board watchers have a responsibility to prove your false claims true.

If you actually lived in Utah you would see that the Public school system here despite its lack of full-funding achieves some of the highest rates of graduation (Jordan led the nation last year, and Davis the year previous), highest academic performance and test taking on AP and college level credit from High School students and taking of these types of tests. Those are end-goals of public education and indicate that Utah has one of the best Public systems in the nation.

By the way, what ABC 4 news described above is illegal. If you know of teachers or PTA or anyone that is campaigning or soliciting $$$ or signatures during school time or on school grounds, please remind them for their own potential good.

Personally, I don't know what the big deal is. I don't see vouchers as making a huge impact one way or the other. But I'm willing to give it a shot. The math and the hold harmless clause work for me, and I have 4 kids that will stay in public school regardless and a wife who's taught in the public school system for years.

Someone above mentioned $300,000 that the pro-choice in education folks, I don't see anything about the $3 million coming in from national interests to attack the Utah Legislature.

What about children in rural schools who don't have an option for an alternative school? Does anyone care about that? What about children with learning disabilities or emotional problems? Do we care if the teachers these children are qualified?

The public schools seem to have failed the average student, yet, the private schools I've seen promote an elitist attitude and do not have programs that work well for every student. In many ways they teach children to choose what they want to learn and are not as concerned with what is necessary to learn to handle post high school life.

Concerned Grandmother

It is interesting how Mr. Clark said that the anti-voucher ads are disingenuous. I think the pro-voucher ads are disingenuous. They want you to know how much money the NEA is spending on TV ads, but the nightly barrage of TV ads are pro voucher. So if the NEA is pumping so much money into the fight, why are there more pro voucher ads on TV? The pro voucher campaign just gives me a queasy feeling. It is like they are not being honest or forthright and are very hypocritical. At least local teachers contribute money to the NEA, so if the money comes back to Utah, at least most of it came from Utah. On the other hand, nearly all of the campaign money for the Parents for Choice group originates from out-of-state.

CB,
For the record, you lump private with charter. Not to expose your ignorance or anything, but charter schools are public schools, not private.

Also, private schools, according to the voucher law, must hire teachers with a Bachelor's degree or higher in thier subject, or with significant career expertise in the field. The only thing not required is a "teaching certificate". Big woop. A teaching certificate doth not a wonderful teacher make.

What are you anti-choicers afraid of anyway? People not choosing you, it can only be assumed.

Teachers should NOT be using parent teacher conference times to discuss their views on vouchers, unless they are asked for their opinion by the parent. Then, they have a right to answer honestly. All this hubbub about one teacher making a comment to a parent when voucher advocates can do whatever they want at a private school. How about the football game betwwen Judge and Juan Diego this weekend. Anyone notice the pro-voucher signs being handed out to children to hold up during the game? How about fliers being sent home with private school children at Blessed Sacrament? Where is the outrage about THAT? Are there double standards? Yes. Why? Because public schools are held accountable not only to parents but to taxpayers.
Vouchers mean we'll be subsidizing private schools' right to do whatever they want, while still holding public schools to a higher standard. Vouchers? NO!

Any teacher who would ask for money from a parent to support anti-vouchers is way out of line. I can't believe anyone would do such a thing. If they did, they need to chastised immediately by their superiors. I'm a teacher and I would NEVER do such a thing. Kudos to those who are making valid points against some of the unsupported claims made by Jason. People get education mixed up with business. In business, you measure success by the amount of profit you make, or the amount of materials you can turn out. Children come to us as teachers with individual needs and desires. Many a time I've seen a smart, capable student choose not to apply themselves or decide not to reach their potential. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make them drink. I have students in my class that would make great progress if only I had a little bit more support from home and from having an aid in my classroom. My job is difficult and very challenging, but I do my best and I get excellent test scores. I am NOT failing my students.

"I find this highly offensive--" that the reaction of the "offended" legislator is reported before the alleged "threat", which is never actually explained. That's too common with reporters, especially on issues like pro- and anti-vouchers.
The emotional response gets the emphasis; the News Story focuses on the debate rather than on the facts behind the debate.
We can draw our own conclusions if we are told what Clark (is alleged to have) said. Inserting your interpretation of the result of the remark is not a proper substitute for reporting it as it happened.

You'd get an "F" in my journalism class.

If you want to be a reporting hero, explain what no one in the media wants to tell us: the actual dollar amounts being spent on education per child, what happens if a family takes a child to another school, the public education budget versus the amount proposed for the voucher experiment.
We've asked several reporters and talk-show hosts to put these answers out there.
They'd still rather report on the fact there is an emotional debate.

No teacher asked for money at PT conferences because they haven't happened yet. That was a nice try to light the fire though.

People are finally seeing certain legislators for what they are worth.

vouchers is going to go down by a large defeat and then what will they do? Bring up a new bill next session. When you have legislators who spend their career BUILDING CHARTER SCHOOLS what do you expect? They are going to keep on trying or else their own business will fail.

Orem finally voted the guy out that was building them but I believe the guy from Spanish Fork is still in there.

Time for them to listen to the public.

WE DON'T WANT VOUCHERS! WE WANT GREAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS!


and no our schools in Utah aren't failing. We are at the top of the class even with horrible funding. just think what we could do with great funding!

CB and others have asserted that funding vouchers will deplete already insufficient funds for the public school system.

Where's the evidence for your claim?

Will someone please tell me where to find this information for myself?

Reality,
We want vouchers. We want great public schools. We want great students and teachers. We want..

The public does want vouchers. The NEA, UEA, school boards, and anyone that listens to them don't want vouchers. Can you say monopoly and power?

Go read the voter info pamplet - the fair review. It will be a good thing, if not for the education system, just because the UEA doesn't want it.

Let's make schools better. Lets get rid of the UEA and the NEA.