Deseret News | Schools measuring up?

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Schools measuring up?

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Sing, laugh, play, read... | 12:59 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

All schools can improve, and all teachers can, too. What about students? What about parents? Let's not forget that most teachers/schools, if they were changed to those high-performing schools' areas, would become superstars, too--overnight. There are issues that also need to be dealt with at home. Students who come to school 'sad, mad or bad' because mom and/or dad are that way (to borrow a phrase from Dr. Jack Shonkoff--a world-renowned pediatrician all should "google") have emotional issues that interfere with their learning. It has been said that many of the solutions to societal problems lie predominantly in the homes rather than the schools, or government (as important as those are). What can be done to help students, moms, and dads do their part a little better in this school picture?

Talk | 1:14 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

In the NYTimes Paul Tough said the more words a kid hears at home, the better. I'm trying to be an attentive dad who responds to my children and proactively teaches them.

Partnerships | 1:16 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

I'd like to see partnerships between schools and parents. Maybe schools could offer parenting classes. Parent's don't always know how important interaction is, or how to discipline appropriately.

Comments continue below

teacherlady | 5:18 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

The elementary school I teach at passed the tests in the areas of math, language, and science last year but still failed the UPASS because there is an attendance component. Too many students were absent or tardy. Are teachers to be blamed for that also? Some responsibility has to be placed on parents to get their kids to school on time. I'm amazed at the some of the reasons children are allowed to stay home.

Anonymous | 6:48 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Throw away the vidio games and make them mow the lawn for starters there are way to many kids sitting in front of tv or computer all the time and never learn how too really work and it carries on too school. Vouchers are a great idea bring competition into the school system so teachers get paid according to what they teach. In my job if I just blame the parents for the problems they would replace me so blame who you will its still the kids that aren't getting an education.

James | 7:06 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Teacherlady, I hope not. With a requirement of 95% participation in all race categories, as an example, it is very easy to fail AYP. And if you fail one of the 35 or so categories, you fail the whole test. Meaning, if your school has to Polynesian or Pacific Islander students and one did not show up to school that day, bam...you just failed AYP!

NCLB has some good components and some that need some rethinking. The attendance part is well intentioned, as you don't want teachers/staff sending home all the struggling students the day of test so only the smart ones are taking it. On the other side, some categories are very easy to fail and I would bet most of the failing schools failed one of these easy categories.

Reality | 7:24 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

First, get rid of the out-of-shape teachers. What kind of example do our kids have to look to when you have an overweight soda sucking teacher?

Gifted children left behind | 7:41 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Provo School District hit the high mark with U-PASS, but does very little in the area of gifted education. Studies show that gifted children are as likely to drop out of school as their peers who struggle with academics.

I've watched my gifted child change from an engaged learner to a child who gets by with only minimal effort because of lack of challenging material. For several years he was allowed to do advanced math one year ahead at home (he was four years ahead of his peers), but not at school, where they needed to ensure he knew the math the rest of the children his age were doing. What child wants extra schoolwork at home?

As we seek to leave no child behind, let's maximize the potential of this group by giving them the same attention we give slow learners. Leaving any child behind is a mistake.

BLC | 7:54 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

The required testing in our schools only judges the memorization and regurgitation skills of a child. These tests do nothing to measure their true ability to think on their feet, work with others, plan, produce products etc. When are we as parents going to learn that real education comes from gaining experiences not from regurgitating useless facts. Our school system understands that but we won't allow them to leave the world of testing long enough to create that environment.
As a business leader it is urgent that we leave the world of high stakes tests behind and move to a more constructivist type of school environment. This environment will engage all learners and we will see future entrepreneurs and employees with a far better skill set than what we see today.

Parent | 8:02 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

These numbers mean nothing. If 90% of the kids pass but the small minority group fails to pass then the whole school is failing.

NCLB is the biggest mistake in education. Happily it should disappear or face major changes soon....

joejoe | 8:04 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

so the schools are not passing muster according to government test? Are these the same standards that the anti voucher people say private schools will not be held accountable to? I fail to see why it is important to be held accountable to some govenment standard when there is no consquence for nor measuring up. Are these public schools going to be closed, fined, have there funding striped, will teachers, or admistrators be fired? No they will demand more money! Because all we need is just a little more money and everything will turn up roses! Standards without consequences are worthless standards, and it makes for a falacious argument by the anti voucher crowd but they will whistle the tune to the detrment of the childern the claim to want to help.

Private Schools | 8:08 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Bottom line... The voucher issue is about establishing a class system in our society. This is not good. Public school money should not be used in private schools.
Schools need more money.
Teachers need more respect.
Principals need more respect.
Parents need to support public education.

Craig | 8:12 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Excellent comment joejoe.

another teacher | 8:39 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

I fully agree with many of the comments listed, most especially with the attendance comment. If more of my students attended on a consistent basis, they would be more prepared for any tests, not just standardized.

teacherlady | 8:41 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Anonymous, I'd love to know what your job is. My guess is that you don't even work with kids. If you don't, your comment if bunk.

James, the attendance part of the NCLB does not just count on the testing dates. It is compiled throughout the year. Teachers and the administration work hard all year to do what we can to get the kids to school and get them there on time, but we only have so much control. Kids are absent for ridiculous reasons. Some even stay home to tend younger siblings so a mom can go visiting teaching. To those out there who think schools should be run as a business, I don't know of any other job/business where so much is expected from "managers" who don't have complete control over their "product."

REAL | 8:48 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Let's get real. The answer is RESPECT. Students have none for teachers, administrators, parents or each other. There is a lack of discipline at our schools, because of a fear of law-suits. If we want our children to be better educated and we want to see our schools pass any AYP or test period. We must give teachers the control to discipline our children. We must teach our children to respect authority. As parents we must take responsibility and stop placing blame where it does not belong. It has to start with us! Teachers should also be a high paying profession, they are building our future leaders after all.

Marissa | 9:11 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

One more reason to vote yes for Vouchers. The school systems are FAILING our children and we are letting it happen. If anyone that is informed can answer this question I would appreciate it. If my son is attending a school that did not pass can I as his mother pull him out of that school and put him in one that did? I am guessing probably not. Please for our children's sake do the right thing and vote for our children to attend school wherever they want.

ThinkAbout | 9:19 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

For those opposed to public money spent on private schools -- For years the federal government has been allowing ï¿½public fundsï¿½ to be spent on private schools. They are called PELL Grants and really whoï¿½s money is it anyway. It is our money. We pay the taxes! We should be able to decide how to spend our money on our Childs education. After all we know them the best.

jackhp | 9:32 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

joejoe,
Using NCLB "accountability" in your diatribe against voucher opponents is ridiculous. I think you will find just as many opponents of NCLB on the BOTH sides of the voucher issue.

Marissa,
Even if your school isn't "failing" you can pull your kid out and transfer to another school, as long as you are willing to provide transportation.

Using the failings of NCLB as a reason to support vouchers is seriously grasping at straws. I can see the pro-voucher people are getting desperate . . .

College Student | 9:37 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Teachers need to be given the resources necessary to be successful. Utah has one of the lowest per pupil spending rates in the nation. Respect is something that needs to be taught and practiced at home. Parents need to support teachers, it is a partnership between both. Parents are failing not teachers. Parents step up and take responsibility public education is just not a babysitting service offered for everyone. Get involved in your students education. Vouchers are not the issue because the same problems will occur because parents are not involved in their child's education. Bicker about vouchers all you want but the issue lies with the parents. Parents get involved.

jackhp | 9:49 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

ThinkAbout,
Pell Grants are not equivalent to the Utah voucher law. There are a few reasons why, the biggest being that with vouchers there is no income level where NO voucher is available. Pell Grants have a relatively LOW income cutoff.

Yes, WE do pay the taxes and WE will get to decide how best to spend OUR money come November. YOU should not be able to personally decide how to spend OUR money.

Education is a collective enterprise. If WE decide that vouchers should be implemented then I will support that decision and will work to improve a highly flawed law. As it stands, the current law is horrible public policy and I will be voting NO on Referendum 1.

Proud of our School | 9:58 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

I am proud of our school. Coral Canyon Elementary in Washington, Utah is doing a great job. I am proud of our teachers. They spend so much out of pocket money, and extra personal time to make a great school for our kids. I want them to know how much I appreciate the hard work they are doing and for so little money. I think teachers are so under paid. I don't understand. They have the hardest job out of anyone I can think of, and get paid practically nothing. Not only that, but they do not have the help they need in the classroom for kids who are behind, and who are need a little bit of one on one, nor for the kids who are ahead who need to be working on different things.

I think the answer is to make all schools somewhat like charter schools so that each child learns on their own level. Separate into different math and reading classes.

I also think that teachers need to stop blaming parents. I am seeing a lot of that on this board. I think that most parents are doing their best. If you want parents to give you the benefit of the doubt, then you must do the same. If you support a parent, and be positive with them even if their child is late here and there, you will see that the parent will support you with time, money, and praise.

teacherlady | 10:12 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Proud of our School,
I'm not putting all of the blame on parents. I'm only saying they need to take part of the responsibility for the education of their children by seeing that their kids get to school and get to school on time. Feeding them breakfast and making sure they get a good night's sleep would also be helpful. Trust me, we've been sweet, kind, positive, and supportive. It doesn't always work. Good try though.

Walkon | 10:21 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

JoeJoe treated us to a tired argument. We need to ignore the whining teachers who demand more money. Maybe those teachers are a little frustrated because we live in a state where having 10 children is something to be proud of. Yet we spend the least amount of money educating them. Many teachers have 40+ kids in their classes. They are frustrated - not greedy.

To teacherlady | 10:24 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Good try, though? I am just amazed that you would talk to me even over the internet like that. It sounds like maybe some teachers need to learn a little respect.

charisma | 10:48 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

My two cents:

Here's a given: NCLB definitely has its flaws.

Here's another: Parents need to be more involved.

However, the common trend I can see from the dozen newspaper articles from today, is that schools, teachers, administrators, community leaders and parents are ALL stepping up to create innovative strategies and programs ALL for the benfit of our children! This is a GOOD thing!

The definition of stupidity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Kudos to all the groups mentioned above who are trying new ideas to improve the educational experience of our children. It seems to be working to some extent.

What we need now is a clearinghouse for all these ideas/programs so they can be shared with all schools in similar circumstances. Focus on what is actually working and generalize those programs to other schools.

teacherlady | 11:02 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Proud of our school,

I honestly meant no disrespect in my comment to you. I only meant that although your advice is good, it doesn't always work. I should have said it differently. The issue frustrates me. My apologies.

Voucher Advocate | 11:05 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

For all of you in denial, the evidence is undeniable, our public education system in the U.S. is broken. We now rank 37th among industrialized nations and we are sinking even lower. We are asked each year to throw more and more money into the public education pit, resulting in even more dismal results. Tens of thousands of students graduate each year who prove to be functionally illiterate, I have a grandson who ranks among them.
Please open your mind to change, everyone must accept part of the blame for the mess we are in which will not improve without drastic changes.
Belgium is number one and got there by changing from public to charter/private schools, their public system has all but disappeared.
As for all of you teachers and administraters, maybe you should consider opening your own charter/private school by turning part of your home into a school, one thing is for sure, your income would certainly improve.

To All | 11:10 a.m. Sept. 17, 2007

In many (but not all) cases the child's problem in school becomes readily apparent within just a few minutes of meeting the parents. And, interestingly enough, the coddled and over protected kids present as great a challenge in the classroom as those from abusive environments who of course have their issues as well. Trying to get some (but not all) parents to commit to reading even 15 minutes per day with their children is like pulling teeth and those are the children who so desparately need it. What a great difference that alone would make. That said, we all need to realize that there are no perfect teachers, no perfect parents, and no perfect students. It takes all 3 to form an effective learning environment. I think working together instead of against each other would be a good start.

Anon | 12:13 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Hey JoeJoe,

You don't have a clue about NCLB do you! No consequences? What do you call free bussing, free tutoring, state take-over, federal take-over? These are all consequences imposed upon public schools that are labeled "failing" on NCLB.

To pro-voucher advocates:

Isn't it nice that your private school doesn't have to follow the incredibly expensive (and unfunded) mandates of NCLB? How would your private school perform? How would you like your private school to be labeled as "failing" because one student didn't show up on testing day? How would your private school like to have to spend the huge amounts of money that the public schools have to expend on NCLB? How would American Heritage School, for example, like to have to "teach to the test" instead of teaching about the Book of Mormon? You want the taxpayer money but you don't want to have to follow the same conditions for that money!

Struggling Students | 12:14 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

AYP just sets up struggling students to fail. Students who are receiving resource services must be tested on their grade level when their instructional level is much lower. For example my now 6th grader has a brain injury. She functions on a 2nd grade level but she is required to take the 6th grade tests. When you look at most schools this is the reason that schools are not making AYP.

Moving in and out. | 12:16 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

My best friend is a teacher in downtown Salt Lake. She deals with only 4% of her students who start the first day of school with her are the ones that she tests. Many of these students have moved 3 or more times before the end of the year. There is no consistency in their education. Is that the teacher or the school's fault? AYP does not factor any parental responsibility into it.

Vouchers | 12:19 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Remember that students in the private schools do not have to take these tests and do not have the mandates. Teachers there don't even have to be certified. Isn't that a great education for your child.

To Reality | 12:52 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

What does weight have to do with the ability to effectively teach? I'm guessing you've never sucked down a Mountain Dew in your entire life, right?

Lyall | 12:56 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

To Vouchers:

Fact: Private schools accepting vouchers have to administer the tests you refer to. (Read the law and you'll notice there are multiple layers of accountability that private schools must adhere to)

Fact: Being a certified teacher does not mean you are a quality teacher. A piece of paper does little to ensure that my child's teacher is a great teacher.

Elliot | 1:27 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Lyall,
My nephew attended a private school (American Heritage, I think). His math teacher was the 14 year old daughter of the school principal.

I'm grateful my kids' teachers have that little piece of paper.

VOUCHER BS | 1:28 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

I WOULD TAKE A GREAT TEACHER OVER A CERTIFIED TEACHER ANYDAY...

Just a Thought | 1:42 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Why do people think private schools are so much better? One reason is the private schools are not required to educate everybody. If a child is disruptive or not performing at grade level, the school could easily kick her out. Try that at a public school.

YES to vouchers | 1:58 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

American culture is based on competition. Let's support vouchers because it will change the public school system quicker than anything. Once the students start leaving public schools the principals will get on the ball right away instead of letting things happen around them. Private school do educate everybody, there is a high parents involvement and children are bonded to their parents, not their peers. (Read Dr. Neufeld "Hold on to your kids.") I have taught in public school and my children have attended private school. I know both sides and would, like Voucher BS take a great teacher of a certified teacher anytime. Teachers need continuing education because they use the same stuff for 20 years. A great teacher has fun and changes approaches from one semester to the next. Let's support vouchers and add some competition, it will change the public schools quickly.

Anon | 2:23 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Lyall,

You need to read the voucher bill again. Private schools that accept vouchers DO NOT have to follow the unfunded mandates of NCLB!!! There are not "multiple" layers of accountability in this bill. There is an audit after FIVE long years. The public schools would kill for that kind of "accountability".

Public School Teacher | 3:18 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

However, the private schools are accountable to the parents. If they aren't doing I good job, then I can get my kid the heck out of there. With public schools, that's usually not an option.

Anon2 | 3:48 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

To Vouchers:

Allow me to point out that a "certified" teacher is a pedagogy expert, NOT a subject matter expert. Subject matter requirements amount to less than a college minor in an education degree. Those with subject matter degrees are forced to take dozens of hours of education courses in order to qualify for an "alternative certification" - requirements that can be tantamount to a master's, without the commensurate salary increase. Many of these subject-matter experts turn up in private schools, because private schools have the freedom to judge fitness from a resume, rather than a transcript. Which would you hire by?

jackhp | 4:00 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Public School Teacher,
Yeah, you CAN get your kid the heck out of a bad private school. And guess where that kid will end up, more often than not? Yep . . . in PUBLIC school.

BTW, it's simply not true that you don't have an option to get out of a public school. You can transfer to any other public school, including a charter school, as long as they have room and you are willing to provide transportation.

I really wish people would use their computers to do a little research before posting such unfounded claims.

Vouchers Bad | 4:05 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

It is wrong to place public money into private schools, including charter schools. I am a single guy with no children living in Utah County. I pay my taxes to send your kids to school, where is my voucher? I am glad to pay my taxes for education as I might hire some of the students at a later date and the public has educated them for me and other employers.

Plus how does a small voucher for even those with the lowest income help get them into a private school? I dont understand how the poorest among us could take 3000 a year and provide education and transportation to a private school. Vouchers are unfair and just silly.

To All You Teachers | 4:11 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

How can you post throughout the day like this? Aren't you busy 26 hours a day teaching kids? That's what I keep hearing.

teacherlady | 4:32 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

A reply for "To All You Teachers",
We have year round school and I'm off track. Usually I substitute to make a little extra money on my off track days, but I had an appointment today. Still, I can't believe I've posted this much either. Must be because I'm so passionate about the subject matter. :)

u think?? | 5:31 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

Hey Private Schools. maybe im wrong but isn't it TAX payer money not public school money if not then its not coming out of my pocket so give them all they want to flush down the public school toilet. But if by chance it is tax money I want mine going to vouchers were real world teachers compete for real world teaching jobs just like the rest of us real world tax payers!!!

To Teacherlady | 5:56 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

OK. Now I feel put in my place where I belonged to begin with. I'll go back to my corner. :)

High school student | 5:56 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

I'm a high school student, and I think that my school at least is doing an excellent job. The teachers are fun and are eager to teach. They really do try their best to help out the students and build positive relationships with them. The classes are not only fun, but informative. There is only one teacher I can think of that is not up to par, and out of the hundred some odd, I'm liking the odds. In my opinion, the problem lies with the students. In even the most fun classes, you can see students chatting to each other, passing notes, texting under the desk, and falling asleep. Tardies are a big problem, particularly fourth hour after lunch. Students will come trekking in to the classroom fifteen minutes late, unabashed, and carting a Wendy's bag. The effort is being made by the teachers and staff. I think that the real problem lies in that the students have no drive, and there isn't any real want to learn. If the students apply themselves and actively try to do their best, they will learn. I can say this from a firsthand experience; when I'm apathetic about school, I do poorly. When I pay attention and have a positive attitude, I learn. Put the blame where it lies... us!

And give the teachers a break; they really do deserve more credit than you're giving them.

Utah Escapee | 6:07 p.m. Sept. 17, 2007

To Voucher Advocate: Maybe if you had turned "part of YOUR home into a school" your grandson wouldn't be "functionally illiterate." Education is an opportunity, not an innoculation. Try treating your teachers as partners, instead of the enemy. Get involved. Everyone wants a quality teacher for the children, INCLUDING the administration and staff of every school. Why do so many of you think that certification and quality are mutually exclusive? For all it's LDS family values, Utah should be ashamed of it's historically poor support of education. You get what you pay for. I am the spouse of an award-winning teacher. We moved across the country to find better respect and better wages. Your loss.

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Schools measuring up?