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Massacre services reopen wounds
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BJW | 5:23 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
Yawn is right. It happened, its done, its 150 years later. Cant we all just get
along? =)
ME | 5:34 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
Joshua, get the date right, it was Sept 11, 2001, not 2002...
Krimeny | 5:39 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
Herb would like an apology from the Native Americans who killed his 4'th
great grandfather's wife and kids, and Dave would like one from the whites
who killed his 3'rd great grandfather at Wounded Knee. And so on and so
forth.
Robert E. Lee, Ulysses S. Grant, and Abraham Lincoln set the standard which makes the USA different from European long-memory sore spots like Ireland and Kosovo. Having settled the issue which caused the killing, we are generous to our former enemies, and forgive, and we move on.
Some, in this age which glorifies "having a grievance" (that is, "being a victim"), would apparently like to change that standard.
That's a bad idea.
Robert E. Lee, Ulysses S. Grant, and Abraham Lincoln set the standard which makes the USA different from European long-memory sore spots like Ireland and Kosovo. Having settled the issue which caused the killing, we are generous to our former enemies, and forgive, and we move on.
Some, in this age which glorifies "having a grievance" (that is, "being a victim"), would apparently like to change that standard.
That's a bad idea.
Comments continue below
BY Alum | 6:08 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
I read Turley's Account of the MMM in the Ensign article. If the article is
accurate it would appear that one man's brief off-hand remark in Cedar City
set the MMM wheels in motion. In "American Massacre" by Denton, she
claims that was a fabricated rumor and the destruction of the Party was set up
prior to Cedar City. Did Juanita Brooks in her book come to a similiar
conclusion? IMHO I think the Mormon Reformation, see some of LDS Apostle Jediah
Grant talks, in the mid 1850s primed the LDS populus for an action like this. I
think the "Oath of Vengance" in the 19th century Temple ceremony
played a role. I think the wealth of the party played a role. Denton reported
that Jacob Hamblin ended up with some of the Fancher's Cattle post-MMM. The
Utah populous was on War alert from the First Presidentcy. I think there was
strong social pressure on local LDS adults males to participate in the MM
action. Some of those who were there but for matters of conscience did not
participate where latter "hewned down" as Denton Suggests. Tieing up
loose ends? In summary, as Turley suggests the issues are complex. We will
probably never know if BY was pulling the strings. The Church archives have
probably been throughly sanitized. Comments or thoughts anybody?
Blue & Gold | 6:21 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
The Fancher-Baker Party Started in Harrison, Arkansas. Surprisingly there is no
big hoo-ha in the Local Newspapers about this being the 150th Anniversary of
MMM. There are LDS missionaries wandering around the area. You got to credit the
Church PR department for erecting a monument to the Fancher party.
Living on a Pacific rock | 7:22 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
As I've considered the tragedy at Mountain Meadows and the many others that
preceded and that have since proceeded it I've come this
understanding...
Our world is filled with billions of people that make trillions of incredibly good and tragically bad choices every single day. Why they/we make those choices the moment they/we make them is virtually impossible to explain! Is it nature?? Is it nurture?? Is is a combination of the two with the variables of attitude, opportunity, impulses, and circumstances??
Although we have facts and figures in history, the overall reporting of it is very subjective. Even the most accurate account is still limited by the perceptions, bias, and attitude of the author who record those events. The interpretations of the authors account are also vastly different because of the readers perceptions, bias, and attitudes. If you channel surf through the news stations you can see how reporters (standing in front of news cameras where current history is being recorded) have vastly different interpretations of what's actually happening and why it's happening.
As has been mentioned many, many times in previous posts...I think we can all find our ax to grind with history if we look deep enough. I guess I just don't understand what good that does any of us??? I think most Christians believe that Christ lifted the burden of judgment from us through His sacrifice. It's because of that gift...not having to waste time on judging others...that we can focus on our own imperfections and short comings. Heaven knows I need to spend my time asking for forgiveness and understanding for my own mistakes. I can't imagine trying to find time to apologize/explain away everyone else's.
Our world is filled with billions of people that make trillions of incredibly good and tragically bad choices every single day. Why they/we make those choices the moment they/we make them is virtually impossible to explain! Is it nature?? Is it nurture?? Is is a combination of the two with the variables of attitude, opportunity, impulses, and circumstances??
Although we have facts and figures in history, the overall reporting of it is very subjective. Even the most accurate account is still limited by the perceptions, bias, and attitude of the author who record those events. The interpretations of the authors account are also vastly different because of the readers perceptions, bias, and attitudes. If you channel surf through the news stations you can see how reporters (standing in front of news cameras where current history is being recorded) have vastly different interpretations of what's actually happening and why it's happening.
As has been mentioned many, many times in previous posts...I think we can all find our ax to grind with history if we look deep enough. I guess I just don't understand what good that does any of us??? I think most Christians believe that Christ lifted the burden of judgment from us through His sacrifice. It's because of that gift...not having to waste time on judging others...that we can focus on our own imperfections and short comings. Heaven knows I need to spend my time asking for forgiveness and understanding for my own mistakes. I can't imagine trying to find time to apologize/explain away everyone else's.
The Pot and the Kettle | 7:27 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
I find it humorous that in most of the comments that are obviously from LDS that
you expect the MMM descendents to forget about the past and get over wrongs done
to their ancestors, but at the same time you hold dearly to the wrongs done to
your ancestors. If you want them to get over it maybe you should try to get
over it also. None of you were at Haun's Mill, Carthage, or any of the
other places you continue to whine about. And chances are a good portion of you
don't even have ancestors who were in any of those places anyway.
Anonymous | 9:20 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
Did BY lie about blood of atonement, did god error or is the doctrine of blood
of atonement valid?
It will never die | 9:22 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
A formal apology from the LDS church aside, it is clear from many of these
comments that MMM is never going to be put to rest. The arrogance in
defending/belittling this event is amazing. I am not a descendant of MMM
victims, but if I was, I don't know how I could tolorate the general Mormon
attitude towards this event.
Gardiner | 10:27 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
People on this board keep saying that the Mormon church did give a formal
apology many years ago. I have read extensively about MMM and I have never
seen such an apology. Please give an exact quote and a reference otherwise it
is just more revisionist History.
Nigerian reader | 11:28 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
Two thoughts occur to me. First, it is always interesting how in academia we
feel like we have finally arrived at historical truth only to have that
"truth" overturned by additional evidence a few years later. In the
case of the Mountain Meadow Massacre, I suspect that what he hold as history
tomorrow will be different from the historical facts of today. The revision of
history happens on an ongoing basis as more and more facts come to light but
also as the social mores and political landscape alters.
The second thought that occurs to me is the importance of following the Christian teaching of learning to forgive. In South Africa, the whole country is going through a noble experiment in trying to live this principle. Nelson Mandela understood that he could not persecute de Klerk upon taking power as this would set the wrong example for the country. Rather, he made his former adversary a part of his cabinet to show the importance of blacks and whites working together to create a new South Africa. Ghandi operated in a similar way in preserving India's relationship with Great Britain.
The point is that Christ was right when he suggested that we need to do all we can to repent of our sins. He was also right when told each of us to forgive regardless of whether the other has repented or not. Interestingly, both the offended and the giver of offense hold a responsibility towards one another. Also, interestingly, in Christian doctrine both sides can move on with no action from the other party. It seems to be the responsibility of the participants on both sides to follow the admonition of Christ if they are to find peace.
The second thought that occurs to me is the importance of following the Christian teaching of learning to forgive. In South Africa, the whole country is going through a noble experiment in trying to live this principle. Nelson Mandela understood that he could not persecute de Klerk upon taking power as this would set the wrong example for the country. Rather, he made his former adversary a part of his cabinet to show the importance of blacks and whites working together to create a new South Africa. Ghandi operated in a similar way in preserving India's relationship with Great Britain.
The point is that Christ was right when he suggested that we need to do all we can to repent of our sins. He was also right when told each of us to forgive regardless of whether the other has repented or not. Interestingly, both the offended and the giver of offense hold a responsibility towards one another. Also, interestingly, in Christian doctrine both sides can move on with no action from the other party. It seems to be the responsibility of the participants on both sides to follow the admonition of Christ if they are to find peace.
A Utah Man | 11:33 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007
The tragic fight and massacre at Mountain Meadow followed a complex set of
events and circumstances better understood at the time. Years ago, when I read
Juanita Brooks' book I was grateful for her improvement of my poor
understanding of why some Mormons and some Indians in southern Utah decided that
that particular group out of so many westward moving emigrant trains required an
effort to assail it and then massacre its people. Certainly I feel sad for
those people who were murdered. But one thing is clear, the federal
government's 1857 threats against Utah's Mormon settlers and the
government's assembly of an army to invade this territory had 1857 LDS
settlements in a panic and on a war footing. The federal government's
threatening actions helped motivate some panicked settlers and Indians to
massacre an insulting group of emigrants. That's why I don't believe
the Federal Government should be given control of the LDS Church's 2,400
acre Mountain Meadows property. That property, honored and maintained by the
LDS Church, should remain in LDS Church possession, or if relinquished to any
government, then, it would be the Utah State Government that could best care for
a state memorial properly, not the federal government whose Buchanan
administration had set in motion so much tension out here in the West where the
"Mormons" had escaped from unjust and violent persecution seeking to
finally find peace.
As for Brigham Young, his cautions against the shedding of innocent blood were consistant in 1857 and later during the Black Hawk War. He did not condone massacres of unarmed civilians. Hot-blooded young Indian braves contributed pressure for a massacre. Juanita Brooks arrived at the conclusion that Brigham Young didn't have a direct repsonsibility for ordering the attack or the massacre.(page 67, "The Mountain Meadows Massacre")
As for Brigham Young, his cautions against the shedding of innocent blood were consistant in 1857 and later during the Black Hawk War. He did not condone massacres of unarmed civilians. Hot-blooded young Indian braves contributed pressure for a massacre. Juanita Brooks arrived at the conclusion that Brigham Young didn't have a direct repsonsibility for ordering the attack or the massacre.(page 67, "The Mountain Meadows Massacre")
Jeff P | 12:29 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
As an LDS Member, I apologize for the horrible atrocity that was MMM. I have no
ancestors who participated, but I do admit I was raised in a religious culture
that always seems to want to �forget the
past�.
After Joseph was martyred, Brigham Young inserted the following oath into the temple ceremony, �You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children ..." -Reed Smoot Case, vol. 4, p. 495-496
This oath remained in the Temple ceremony until the 1920s.
Brigham taught from the pulpit- ��Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the sheding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood� This is loving our neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it� - JoD 4:219-220 (February 8, 1857)
The rumor flew around that the Fancher Party contained some who had murdered Pratt(Apostle).
Although he may have not ordered it, Young helped create the type of mindset that could allow it to happen� he was DEFINITLY no Ghandi.
The MMM Site does not belong in the hands of the Church. Please do the respectful thing and give it back to the relatives of the slain, or to the government. Let them put their cross back up. No Mormons are buried there. Let them have their closure.
Peace
After Joseph was martyred, Brigham Young inserted the following oath into the temple ceremony, �You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children ..." -Reed Smoot Case, vol. 4, p. 495-496
This oath remained in the Temple ceremony until the 1920s.
Brigham taught from the pulpit- ��Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the sheding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood� This is loving our neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it� - JoD 4:219-220 (February 8, 1857)
The rumor flew around that the Fancher Party contained some who had murdered Pratt(Apostle).
Although he may have not ordered it, Young helped create the type of mindset that could allow it to happen� he was DEFINITLY no Ghandi.
The MMM Site does not belong in the hands of the Church. Please do the respectful thing and give it back to the relatives of the slain, or to the government. Let them put their cross back up. No Mormons are buried there. Let them have their closure.
Peace
AZ Boy | 1:03 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I can't apologize for actions taken 123 years before I was born, nor do I
intend to or expect anybody in the LDS church to apologize. History is full of
tradgedies. It is also full of people who continually relive the worst parts.
Time to move forward | 3:13 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
How do we move forward?
There is an official memorial dedicated to the MMM victims and the LDS church is sincere in keeping up this property. There have been many statements over the years about this horrible tragedy for those who seem confused that our church leaders haven't given enough recognition on this event.
I believe that if an official ceremony takes place at this site each and every year, that that in itself brings back the point that we need to get over the mistakes that some people made in the past and with forgiveness in our hearts - to move on.
Just as in visiting our relatives grave sites in public cemeteries, we should respect the dead and not bring pomp and ceremony to this event each year.
After 150 years, I feel safe to say that those who were murdered have most likely forgiven those who committed these horrible acts against them.
Let's all move on now. None of us can speak for those who took part or were a part of this event.
What do we learn from history if we belabor this sad
event year after year after year....
Let us all bring some peace and respect
to those who died, by visiting the site in a respectful way - and forgiving those who committed the crimes. To the victims families - live your lives such that you will make your ancestors proud by taking the higher road. Only then will you find the peace you so desire.
There is an official memorial dedicated to the MMM victims and the LDS church is sincere in keeping up this property. There have been many statements over the years about this horrible tragedy for those who seem confused that our church leaders haven't given enough recognition on this event.
I believe that if an official ceremony takes place at this site each and every year, that that in itself brings back the point that we need to get over the mistakes that some people made in the past and with forgiveness in our hearts - to move on.
Just as in visiting our relatives grave sites in public cemeteries, we should respect the dead and not bring pomp and ceremony to this event each year.
After 150 years, I feel safe to say that those who were murdered have most likely forgiven those who committed these horrible acts against them.
Let's all move on now. None of us can speak for those who took part or were a part of this event.
What do we learn from history if we belabor this sad
event year after year after year....
Let us all bring some peace and respect
to those who died, by visiting the site in a respectful way - and forgiving those who committed the crimes. To the victims families - live your lives such that you will make your ancestors proud by taking the higher road. Only then will you find the peace you so desire.
why keep opening up the wounds? | 3:32 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Wounds all heal eventually if we:
-quit digging up the past like a scab on our knee
(Does an annual ceremony bring closure and respect for the dead, or do we need an annual ceremony to harbor ill feelings towards those today who didn't commit the crime?)So far, the scab isn't healing, is it?
-think about the tragedy and what we've learned from
it
-forgive the person/s who brought injury and quit blaming people today who didn't commit the crime
-move on by living a life dedicated to the victims memory
-appreciate those who are trying to care for the wound
-perhaps the victims feel chained to the past and are saddened because their progenitors can't demonstrate forgiveness that they themselves have already achieved?
-quit digging up the past like a scab on our knee
(Does an annual ceremony bring closure and respect for the dead, or do we need an annual ceremony to harbor ill feelings towards those today who didn't commit the crime?)So far, the scab isn't healing, is it?
-think about the tragedy and what we've learned from
it
-forgive the person/s who brought injury and quit blaming people today who didn't commit the crime
-move on by living a life dedicated to the victims memory
-appreciate those who are trying to care for the wound
-perhaps the victims feel chained to the past and are saddened because their progenitors can't demonstrate forgiveness that they themselves have already achieved?
DarqueStar | 4:04 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
The LDS community will say "it was in the past, get over it" but we
all know full well that if 120 mormons had been killed then there would be a
huge memorial and the annual hand wringing and 'martyrs to the truth'
ceremomies held each year would make the 9/11 services look like a wake for a
distant relative nobody liked.
Wilruff | 6:04 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Regardless of how terrible the event was, there was a coverup. There are many
saints who have heard of Hauns Mill but not of MMM. What are the morality
issues associated with a coverap? Isn't this important to address today?
Mitchell | 7:30 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Like most posters, I am LDS. WHY ARE WE SO HESITANT TO APOLOGIZE? Whenever the
LDS church does good in the world, we take credit for that!
We collectively as members of the church believe that the lives of our founders, and the acts of our church are part of our history. As a missionary I told the story of Joseph Smith as a part of the history of my church. Unfortunately this moment of extremism in the church, regardless of the pressures of the moment, is part of the history of my church. Why is it so difficult for any of us to apologize? What does that say about us? Is it that we cannot think, even for a moment that senior members of our church made a tragic and murderous mistake? Do we think we are infallible or superior? Fact is, senior members of our church were cold blooded. Not one member, but over one hundred. It is our collective history. It does not mean we are all murderers. It does not mean our church is not true. But I know GOD did not order that act. It was cold blooded, killing. Lets not forget the screaming women and children or the orphans. It was evil. It was a moment of shame in a history of our church that also has glorious moments.
We collectively as members of the church believe that the lives of our founders, and the acts of our church are part of our history. As a missionary I told the story of Joseph Smith as a part of the history of my church. Unfortunately this moment of extremism in the church, regardless of the pressures of the moment, is part of the history of my church. Why is it so difficult for any of us to apologize? What does that say about us? Is it that we cannot think, even for a moment that senior members of our church made a tragic and murderous mistake? Do we think we are infallible or superior? Fact is, senior members of our church were cold blooded. Not one member, but over one hundred. It is our collective history. It does not mean we are all murderers. It does not mean our church is not true. But I know GOD did not order that act. It was cold blooded, killing. Lets not forget the screaming women and children or the orphans. It was evil. It was a moment of shame in a history of our church that also has glorious moments.
Move forward | 8:02 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
To me this is the tragedy of living in the past. It makes no sense for members
of the LDS church to constantly bring up Haun's Mill or any other
mis-treatment and it makes no sense for people to obsess over the Mountain
Meadows tragedy. Move forward people! Quit hanging on to bitterness. It is like
we don't want to be enjoy life, we just want to be angry. There is no value
in calling each other names or spewing hatred. These type of things are why this
world is in such a mess. Forgive and move on...
Ken | 8:04 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I will stop talking about MMM when Mormons stop talking about Haun's Mill.
Deal?
nonmemberfriend | 8:17 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Mormons, if you are going to be "proud" of your pioneer heritage -as
evidenced by yearly "pioneer day" parades that rival independence day
parades, then you should also be ashamed of this event from your Mormon history.
Own it.
Daniel | 8:36 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I cannot believe what I am reading. If your grandfather shot someone, can you
take resposability for it? No, you can say, 'my grandfather killed that
guy, i am sorry he did that'. THAT IS WHAT THE CHURCH HAS DONE! They have
said we are sorry this has happened. But they can't take responsability for
it!
THINK!
...of world history. French Revolution, Spanish Inquisition, the Emporers of Russia, keep looking. Can any present day people take the resposability for what happened years ago? NO, that would be dumb! If you start that, here is how it would go.
1. Church says, 'sorry', gives the land over.
2. Missouri, NY, Iowa, Ohio, Illinois, Mass, US government all say sorry and give back all land illigally taken from mormons, pay financial repairations for the dead ones. (by the way, this would be thousands of acres, millions of dollars, etc)
3. Government gives all US land, (meaning the whole united states) back to the indians. Americans now must vacate.
4. England must make ammends for the American Revolution. All americans can go there to live, and the English have to leave.
etc, etc.
Current repairations? Smart!
Past repairations? DUMB!
THINK!
...of world history. French Revolution, Spanish Inquisition, the Emporers of Russia, keep looking. Can any present day people take the resposability for what happened years ago? NO, that would be dumb! If you start that, here is how it would go.
1. Church says, 'sorry', gives the land over.
2. Missouri, NY, Iowa, Ohio, Illinois, Mass, US government all say sorry and give back all land illigally taken from mormons, pay financial repairations for the dead ones. (by the way, this would be thousands of acres, millions of dollars, etc)
3. Government gives all US land, (meaning the whole united states) back to the indians. Americans now must vacate.
4. England must make ammends for the American Revolution. All americans can go there to live, and the English have to leave.
etc, etc.
Current repairations? Smart!
Past repairations? DUMB!
Mary | 8:55 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
I am a descendent and proud of it! I think a descendent of Young's, Lee,
Haight, Kinginsmith, etc. should apologize for their ancestors. Remember that
the great grandchildren and so on are the ones receiving the apology. I am the
great great granddaughter of Emberson. If a member of my family would have been
involved in the murder of Smith or Platt or even been a slave owner I would even
though my father and my grand father weren't involved
Tea gee | 9:14 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Not all 'saints' were chased to Utah from Nauvoo. There were the
Strang 'saints' who moved north. There were those 'saints'
who followed Rigdon and settled in Pittsburgh. There are the 'temple
lot' saints in Independence, MO. There are numerous other groups who
followed Joe Smith, who claim a restoration of the church, have a prophet, seer
and revelator as a leader. None of these groups of 'saints' were
involved in a cover-up of a massacre. And not all 'saints' who came
to Utah were chased. Many choose to trek west.
If the leader(s) of the Utah 'saints' were more forth coming in the aftermath of the MMM tragedy there would not be lingering questions today.
Having pride in church is great. But having so much pride that you are willing to overlook murder in order to protect the image of that church is another thing.
Mormons are proud of there 'saintly' history and are reluctant to look at anything that doesn't positively promote church. Basically, if it isn't positive then it's 'Anti-Mormon' - even if it is the truth.
If the leader(s) of the Utah 'saints' were more forth coming in the aftermath of the MMM tragedy there would not be lingering questions today.
Having pride in church is great. But having so much pride that you are willing to overlook murder in order to protect the image of that church is another thing.
Mormons are proud of there 'saintly' history and are reluctant to look at anything that doesn't positively promote church. Basically, if it isn't positive then it's 'Anti-Mormon' - even if it is the truth.
Coverup? | 9:52 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
While not a scholar on this topic, I�m not to sure there
was a cover up. Somewhere along the way a Mormon leader probably made a
decision setting the massacre in motion; at what level is speculation and
conjecture. Notwithstanding after150 years, I am fairly sure will ever know.
Therefore apologies for the occurrence of tragedy any more than what the LDS
leadership as already acknowledged either by word or deed will probably not be
accepted by the faultless LDS faithful or as genuine by the
victims� descendants or by interested bystanders like
myself.
What we want to know is what really happened and why; and we will most likely never have the definitive truth. And the truth may be to hard to acknowledge or believe.
dpl
What we want to know is what really happened and why; and we will most likely never have the definitive truth. And the truth may be to hard to acknowledge or believe.
dpl
larry | 10:53 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
Forgiveness??-
Missouri apologized to the LDs Church for the extermination order. Go and do thou likewise.
hof-
So when Mormons leaders talk about the "persecution" of the early Saints it's OK but anything indicting Mormonism should be kept silent. Nice.
JGolden-
The state of Missouri officially apologized. MIssouri 1 Mormons 0
James-
Amen.
Mark, utahkeith-
I have never seen an official apology by the Church. Please cite references.
It is a point of debate whether BY directly ordered the massacre. It is far more clear that BY's teachings, the Mormon theocracies struggles w/ the US GOV, and The Mormon Reformation (initiated by Young) created the conditions where the horrific slaughter could happen-- and that he engaged in the cover-up and protection of the actual killers.
Argue all you want-- Mormonism bears a good bit of responsibility. An apology is in order.
Missouri apologized to the LDs Church for the extermination order. Go and do thou likewise.
hof-
So when Mormons leaders talk about the "persecution" of the early Saints it's OK but anything indicting Mormonism should be kept silent. Nice.
JGolden-
The state of Missouri officially apologized. MIssouri 1 Mormons 0
James-
Amen.
Mark, utahkeith-
I have never seen an official apology by the Church. Please cite references.
It is a point of debate whether BY directly ordered the massacre. It is far more clear that BY's teachings, the Mormon theocracies struggles w/ the US GOV, and The Mormon Reformation (initiated by Young) created the conditions where the horrific slaughter could happen-- and that he engaged in the cover-up and protection of the actual killers.
Argue all you want-- Mormonism bears a good bit of responsibility. An apology is in order.
Disgusted | 11:24 a.m. Sept. 11, 2007
So in reading all of the above posts by mormons stating that we should all learn
from the MMM and move on, I can't help but think, "How do you learn
from a mistake without admitting you made it?" Well, read the above posts
and learn! Mormons are masters at this. Whether or not you believe Brigham
Young ordered the attack, he was DEEPLY involved in the subsequent cover up.
This, history attests to. Where is the admission? How unlearned does one have
to be to believe that the mormons thought they were being attacked by the
Fancher party? These were immigrants not cavalry! "The mormons were
afraid that they were being invaded" is a blatant example of cognitive
dissonance. Please read history and not just the white-washed LDS church
version you here in Sunday School.
Marilyn | 4:59 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
It is true that the LDS Church has never humbled itself and offered an official
apology to the descendants and other relatives of the Fancher Party who were so
brutally butchered on September 11, 1857 by high ranking Mormons dressed as
Indians, and some Paiutes. I am deeply ashamed of the religion I was born into
- a religion that presents itself to the world as a moral leader and yet lacks
the moral fortitude of the Catholic Church, which has offered an official
apology to the Jewish Community for hundreds of years of persecution, or even
the US Government, which has apologized to the Black community for its
toleration of slavery. Asking forgiveness for atrocities committed, even if
they were committed years ago, is a moral virtue. The apology should have been
offered many years ago.
Joy Henning | 6:09 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
As an Arkansan who lives just a few miles from Harrison, I would invite you to
go to the Harrison Daily Times and read the editorial on 9 Sept 07 entitled
"reconciliation". I tried to copy it to this comment section but it
was too long.
I think the title of the editorial sums it all up. It's all about reconciliation....that doesn't mean we forget, but it means we forgive, and learn.
I think the title of the editorial sums it all up. It's all about reconciliation....that doesn't mean we forget, but it means we forgive, and learn.
Randy Jordan | 8:58 p.m. Sept. 11, 2007
There have been many comments here stating that the LDS Church as an institution
was not responsible for the MMM. Such remarks are merely a testament to how well
the church's leaders and its apologists have covered up and misrepresented
the facts ever since the incident occurred. The truth is that the LDS church and
its policies were 100% responsible for the MMM. Its doctrines of "blood
atonement" and its temple endowment oath to "avenge the blood of the
prophets" were prime causes. I recommend reading the historical
documentation at
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon472.htm
to see exactly what Brigham Young and his associates said and did before, during, and after the incident.
As for the alleged Mormon "persecutions" in Missouri: the Mormons themselves were entirely responsible for the violence against them. Most respondents to this article are obviously faithful, loyal Mormons, and have only heard the church's side of the story. To get a more balanced view, I recommend reading "The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri" by Stephen LeSeuer.
The Haun's Mill massacre, while tragic, was not an act of "religious persecution" committed by Missouri officials, but rather was an unauthorized act of retaliation for looting and burning of non-Mormon settlements by Mormon "Danites." Local non-Mormons were warned by Mormon dissenters that they were about to be attacked again, and the Missourians improperly attacked the Haun's Mill settlement as a "pre-emptive strike."
For those readers who question this view, I suggest that you study the subject from secular scholars such as LeSeuer before stating your opinions.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon472.htm
to see exactly what Brigham Young and his associates said and did before, during, and after the incident.
As for the alleged Mormon "persecutions" in Missouri: the Mormons themselves were entirely responsible for the violence against them. Most respondents to this article are obviously faithful, loyal Mormons, and have only heard the church's side of the story. To get a more balanced view, I recommend reading "The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri" by Stephen LeSeuer.
The Haun's Mill massacre, while tragic, was not an act of "religious persecution" committed by Missouri officials, but rather was an unauthorized act of retaliation for looting and burning of non-Mormon settlements by Mormon "Danites." Local non-Mormons were warned by Mormon dissenters that they were about to be attacked again, and the Missourians improperly attacked the Haun's Mill settlement as a "pre-emptive strike."
For those readers who question this view, I suggest that you study the subject from secular scholars such as LeSeuer before stating your opinions.
Joy Henning | 6:25 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
As an Arkansan who lives just a few miles from Harrison, I would invite you to
go to the Harrison Daily Times and read the editorial on 9 Sept 07 entitled
"reconciliation". I tried to copy it to this comment section but it
was too long.
I think the title of the editorial sums it all up. It's all about reconciliation....that doesn't mean we forget, but it means we forgive, and learn.
I think the title of the editorial sums it all up. It's all about reconciliation....that doesn't mean we forget, but it means we forgive, and learn.
Who Cares!!! | 8:45 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
Well lets see . . . its 150 years later.
Lets gather and and talk about how we were wronged.
Look at history . . . a lot of terrible things happened 150 years ago. In the USA in France, Russia & on the high seas.
I'm not saying it is right . . . I'm saying GET OVER IT! Move on with your life after all it was your Great-Great-Great-Great grandfather. Who traveled West knowing lots who went out West never made it.
At least they were not part of the Donner Party.
Lets gather and and talk about how we were wronged.
Look at history . . . a lot of terrible things happened 150 years ago. In the USA in France, Russia & on the high seas.
I'm not saying it is right . . . I'm saying GET OVER IT! Move on with your life after all it was your Great-Great-Great-Great grandfather. Who traveled West knowing lots who went out West never made it.
At least they were not part of the Donner Party.
Rhonda | 11:25 a.m. Sept. 12, 2007
I get really sick of the Mormon haters. The mormons left the east for freedom of
those who wished to kill the mormons because of thier beliefs. They beat them,
raped them, burned them, stole from them, tared and feathwered them, whipped
them,Treated them worse than dogs, fought with them, and killed them, and then
they followed them to Utah.Tell me the mormons weren't proscuted. The MMM
was a terrible event that happened because they were in fear of there lives.My
ancesters suffered alot from those mormon haters. But its done and over. Let
people forgive and forget. Look at the wonderful things the LDS Church has done
for people in need. Mormon Leaders are beatiful people. Look at President
Hinkley, his kindness, love for the people, what a wonderful man. Hinkley for
United states President!
David S | 4:05 p.m. Sept. 12, 2007
While it may be too late for apologies to do much good, any of us who are
members of the church should be asking ourselves how seemingly good men, church
leaders and members in good standing, could be convinced to murder women and
children? The old story that the Utah Saints believed the Fancher party was a
threat to them doesn't really hold water. C'mon. They'd
surrendered their weapons and were being marched out under the
"protection" of armed Saints when they were slaughtered. This was
purely evil and shameful. The only way I can begin to account for it is through
blind obedience to authority. Since obedience to authority is still emphasized
as a key obligation for all church members, MMM should act as a cautionary tale
for church members, even today.
Semi-Mormon | 5:42 p.m. Sept. 12, 2007
The MMM episode is a sickening and disturbing piece of history. The people who
ambushed and later murdered unarmed men, women, and children claimed to believe
in Christian principles. Whether they ever admitted it or not, down deep in
their hearts they *had* to know that what they did was heinous and wrong. And
no matter how it gets spun, it was indefensible.
What remains so disturbing is that somehow basic principles got completely out-of-whack. When it came time to act, obedience, temple oaths, and faith in church leaders seems to have trumped any belief in basic Christianity or common decency.
A similar mindset still seems to lurk out there... it embarrasses me to read the angry and defensive tone in many of the comments. The lessons of history sometimes fall on deaf ears.
What remains so disturbing is that somehow basic principles got completely out-of-whack. When it came time to act, obedience, temple oaths, and faith in church leaders seems to have trumped any belief in basic Christianity or common decency.
A similar mindset still seems to lurk out there... it embarrasses me to read the angry and defensive tone in many of the comments. The lessons of history sometimes fall on deaf ears.
Just Wondering | 9:53 p.m. Sept. 13, 2007
A question for those that say let's move on, the past is the past.
Let's move past MMM, Illinois, ect.
How many faithful Mormons have fully embraced your non-Mormon neighbors? How many of you try to include them in your lives without bringing religion into it? Have we all moved past it? Or are they not morale enough? Maybe we haven't moved past it.
I know in my neighborhood there are some of the faithful that have not talked to a certain families solely because they are not LDS. They are very religious, very friendly, very morale, and no less family oriented than anyone else in the neighborhood.
Again, have we moved past it all?
How many faithful Mormons have fully embraced your non-Mormon neighbors? How many of you try to include them in your lives without bringing religion into it? Have we all moved past it? Or are they not morale enough? Maybe we haven't moved past it.
I know in my neighborhood there are some of the faithful that have not talked to a certain families solely because they are not LDS. They are very religious, very friendly, very morale, and no less family oriented than anyone else in the neighborhood.
Again, have we moved past it all?
coming from new zealand | 4:03 a.m. Sept. 15, 2007
the MMM only affects the lds in Utah and maybe the USA, but the rest of the
world mormons could careless, it doesn't do anything to my testimony. It is
in the past.
Maybe what the church can dig up all the bones and give them back to arkansas. come on people it is there land, no matter what you want. They get the final say.
I just feel like you are all beating a dead horse with this one.
Maybe what the church can dig up all the bones and give them back to arkansas. come on people it is there land, no matter what you want. They get the final say.
I just feel like you are all beating a dead horse with this one.
Observation | 8:33 p.m. Sept. 15, 2007
The MMM occurred largely because the Mormons were isolationists - isolating
themselves from the rest of the country and treating everyone else as enemies.
It continues today. The Mormons are the most clique-ish, self-absorbed,
isolationists of any religious group. Who else, besides obvious cults, are so
"tight" internally and so readily ostracize non-Mormons? And the
persecution complex that made them paranoid during the MMM still exists, too.
Anything and everything that is not PRO-LDS is percieved as an
"anti-Mormon" attack.
Just Wondering | 1:00 a.m. Sept. 16, 2007
Right on Observation. Kind of like I was saying above. I've heard very
curse statements made about non-mormons just walking though the store.
I've watched people turn their backs (literally) once they found out a new
neighbor wasn't Mormon. When I moved here a lot of people warned us about
the cliques. It's rampant among the brothers and sisters. I've heard a
lady talking trash about another woman from the same ward behind her back and
then when the woman came to great her, the lady acted as if they were best
friends. But that's the way it is in the SL valley.
Closet Skeletons | 6:24 p.m. Oct. 20, 2007
Grudes are not good. They only create wars. Our world is bad enough today as it
is. Why doesn't everyone give up the gripe sessions and go live a good life
here on earth, to make our world a better place for our children to live in.
That includes me. I think both sides of the MMM need to have peace for
themselves, and for their ancestors. None of us living today were there at the
MMM, nor a witness to what really happened 150 years ago. I'd say, LEAVE IT
ALONE!
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