Deseret News | Reader comments: Massacre services reopen wounds

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Massacre services reopen wounds

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Forgivness?? | 12:52 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Sorry but nobody involved with that incident is living at this time. so why should anyone in this day and age be held responsible for a incident that occured 150 years ago?? How do people expect their own sins to be forgiven if they can't forgive others? Especially for something that happened 150 years ago? I think that this situation is now in the hands of the Lord, let him be the judge of those involved. As far as the land is concerned, yes I think that the LDS church will take care of the land and RESPECT it more then any other organization.

hof | 1:42 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I wish my ancestors were wronged somewhere along the way, so I could have something to be bitter and hateful about. I feel so empty without that disdain for someone whom I have never met, or who will never truly affect my life. You decendants of this massacre are lucky to have a reason for that kind of hatred, and the need for an apology for something that has had no true bearing on your life (other than giving you a reason to complain about those lousy Mormons, who do nothing but keep the memorial site maintained). Sarcasm noted? Hope so...

D O'Brien | 3:13 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

It's important to remember this and similar events in historical context. But what of the Hahn's Mill massacre of innocent Mormons or the murders at the Carthage jail? These were all horrid events be it due to fanaticism, vigilantism, or just in revenge. I know that Missouri issued some sort of apology, but what of other states that drove these pilgrims westward or the churches the murders belonged to? I think we must strive to understand the factors that led to the events, so can we put them to rest. I'm not LDS member, just one desiring fairness in discussion for the greater understanding of all.

Comments continue below

NAM, Mesa, AZ | 3:28 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I understand where they are coming from, but those involved are no longer around, should the sins of the father be held against the son, or the family. I think not. As Christians and we members of the LDS faith are christians we have tried to heal the wounds. The ball as the saying goes is now in their court, we are waiting for it to be returned so we all can take another step forward. and by doing so heal a wound, and let them all rest in peace.

pathetic | 4:41 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

We live in a Dr Phil world, for sure!

Anonymous | 4:44 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I have read some church history on this incident. Nothing has been said about the background surrounding this event. The Federal authorities at the time, were threatening to invade Utah and the Mormons... again for the umpteenth time. They (the Mormons)were very afraid and made the mistake of thinking this party was part of the invading party from Federal officials. Can we address all the times federal officials did nothing when the mormons were massacred again and again and finally had to leave their homes, etc. in the east, all under the purpose of religious freedom? I feel for the descendants. They along with many others deserve much consolation... which I know they will have one day. For now, let's learn from the past and not repeat it.

boysmom | 6:16 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Some of my ancestors were Southern slave owners, a fact that I am not proud of. There are people alive today who would have me pay for that history. I had nothing to do with it, yet I should make apologies and reparations? It makes no sense at all to hold people responsible for acts committed 150 years ago. I wish these MMM descendants could realize that yes, a terrible crime was committed, but today's LDS church leaders are not the ones with blood on their hands.

Grow up! | 6:33 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

It's a crying shame that people are holding on to grudges that didn't even happen to them. History has shown that it wasn't the prophet of the church that issued the order, yet people aren't going to feel any sense of healing unless the prophet of the church today apologizes for the act? Folks, you need to grow up. All I have to say is this.... for those people in our society that are going to pin this massacre on the church and make a stink about it every year until they hear someone say sorry, I'll say it.......SORRY. There. You've heard a Mormon say sorry for the wrongs that were committed that day. It shouldn't matter to you that I'm not the prophet of the church, since it OBVIOUSLY doesn't matter that the prophet of the church didn't order the massacre. Now will someone please find me someone who is going to say sorry to me for driving the saints out of their lands and homes at gunpoint, murdering their husbands and families, and taking everything that was theirs? Because starting right now I'm gonna be a crybaby and hold my breath until I get redressed my grievances from people that did the same thing to my ancestors progenitors. Sheesh.

Greg | 7:17 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

How about an apology from the Arkansas contingent for the slaves their ancestors beat, humiliated, and murdered both before and after MMM? And while they are at it, I need an apology from the Baptist and other churches for all those ordained "ministers" in the South who condoned slavery before and after MMM. Has the Baptist Church already apologized for this? I hope not because I smell $$$$$! Ohh, here is another one, my great, great, great grandmother died of exposure on the river banks in Iowa after being driven out of Nauvoo. I need an apology from both the State of Iowa (even if it didn't exist then), and the State of Illinois. When I found out about her last week on the Internet, I became really outraged and now I am suffering. Like I said, I smell $$$$$.

jean andersen | 7:20 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

i think its interestint that this on 9/11 a date we will never forget i add this memory to that date 9/11 is a date i always think about because it is my daughters birthday and she died 10 years ago in april so i mourn for the people who died 9/11 2001 and also in 1857

MBP | 7:34 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

The hateful sentiments expressed by "christians" and descendents of the victims of the Mountian Meadows Massacre seem to me to be in contradiction to the basic tenenats of Judeo/Christian teachings. I have ancestors who were run out of New York, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois, some even lost family and friends to murderous attacks instigated by governmental and religeous leadership. I have come to believe that those perpetrators of these horrible crimes will be held accountable to God. So what exactly will "an official appology" by current LDS leaders accomplish. Certain peoples from all of our religeons, and from all races and cultures do things that we don't completely understand or agree with, but the modern leaders of those past errors are in no way accountable for actions they had nothing to do with. I would doubt that most critics of LDS leadership, have ever read any histories of these events from sources close to the actual event. Nor have they ever read histories relating to the tragic treatment of early Latter Day Saints written by those more closely related to the actual events. We all need to have more confidence that God is in control of the ultimate judgement of the actions of men, and get on with life!

JGolden | 8:12 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

WOW...Where are the tears for the victims murdered by those fine upstanding Christians at Haun's Mill???????

ladyblueyes | 8:21 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

What's the reference that refers to man not being punished for Adam's transgression but for his own sin? AND - why should the Church apologize when the whole thing was NOT 'ordered' by the church but by individuals who were in fear of their lives, their properties and their way of beliefs? It's just frustrating that these families have allowed the bitterness of their ancestors to come down through the years. Having some American Indian blood in me, I don't hold the US Government of today responsible as a 'conquering force' for moving my ancestors to reservations - there are mitigating circumstances in so many things of history. But it IS history! It's past and cannot be re-lived or fixed. It's done. Let's learn from it and move on.

James | 8:35 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

It is so very difficult for us all to humble ourselves enought to admit that "We did it, and weï¿½re sorry", about anything.

It is time for the church to humble themselves.

A LATTER Day Saint | 8:42 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Of course anyone with any humanity at all feels terribly sorry for the victims of the MMM--and for all other horrible things that happen to suffering people all over the world. We can work to make sure that our personal actions NEVER add to the suffering of others in any way. BUT--that is all we can do.
Nothing that anyone does today can erase the horror of MMM. I've often wondered, even considering the climate of the day, (maybe this is a question that we should all consider)how and why people whose very faith had been tried again and again, and who had suffered some pretty horrible persecution themselves, could do something so horribly out of character. (Yes, I realize that to some anti-Mormons, this IS our character, but I think the facts of 177 years of institutional life pretty well disprove that idea.)
There is nothing in the rest of the history of the Mormon settlement of the west, or of Brigham Young's actions, to show that this was an official act of the LDS Church. I agree that it is illogical to demand an official apology for what wasn't an official act. Of course modern church leaders, like the rest of church members, are terribly sorry this horrible event happened.
But in today's litigeous society, ANY official "apology" would be used in court action, and maybe that's why it's being demanded--I agree that I smell $$$$$ here.

Ken Baguley | 8:45 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

WHEW!!! Enough is enough. Praises to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for honoring the dead and memorializing the ground upon which this terrible incident occurred. Let the government take care of this site? I've been there and it is well taken care of. When and how would the Federal Government do a better job?

J Barton | 8:55 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I am sorry that the descendants have so much anguish regarding their loved ones. I am sorry that they feel The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints needs to give another "type" of apology than the ones offered and the memorial to the horrid incident. I am sorry that there are so many who feel vindictive and hateful comments about one another and about other "states" who have "wronged" their ancestors. My family has experienced nasty things that have happened directly to us. I am GRATEFUL for the blessings I have received - but especially the blessing of not having hate in my heart. I am human. I am sure I could nurse revenge to a monetary level. I am grateful that I have had peace spoken to me instead. I sincerely hope eventually even the descendants of the Francher party can work through their pain and no longer have anger at the living for what the dead has done.

JEE | 8:57 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I need an "I'm Very Sorry" from the Family's of thoes who Shot and Killed my Great Great Grandfather at Haun's Mill. Then I and my children can have peace in our life.

Wounded Knee | 9:07 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

many innocent women and children were killed in South Dakota, and you are more than welcome to visit and see how the Federal Government maintains their memorial.

The LDS Church is a class act.

All Apologies | 9:04 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I've been a member of the LDS church my whole life and am very proud of most of its history. But after reading most of these comments, I feel a need to apologize for their lack of compassion and sensitivity. These descendents aren't asking for much, just for the Church to say "We're sorry for what happened that day." The argument that no one alive is affected by this and that everyone should just move on, is a ridiculous one. If that is true than I never want to hear another pioneer story again, because you know, it's irrelevant and we should move on. The events that occurred that horrible day were done in the name of God and the church, regardless of perverse justification. I don't understand why the church is so reluctant to step forward and officially apologize that an overzealous group of members of our own organization one day became vigilantes clearly lacked the Christian conviction of which they proclaimed. It's like arguing that the Catholic church shouldn't take responsibility for the actions of some of its representatives. It has stepped forward and has paid out millions of dollars. Are the early saints owed their own apologies? Thousands. But past persecution never justifies the massacre of innocent people.

Anonymous-they mistook the party for Federal officials? Because the U.S. Army always traveled with women and children? Is that how you wash the blood off your hands?

mwinters | 9:18 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

The "blame game benefits noone. Someone did something horribly wrong. Thats obvious. There is a lesson to be learned, not covered up and forgotten. Assigning blame this far removed from actual events is fruitless.
My paternal many times great grandmother died of cholera on the mormon trail in 1850. She is remembered as a heroic pioneer in our family histories. Never once in all my life has anyone tried to blame the mobs for driving her and our family from Nauvoo, from kirtland and from New York. As tragic as her experiences were, the lesson taught was of her positive response to bad circumstances.
Precise and accurate histories of events are difficult at best. Human nature always warps the story to the perspective of the writer. The farther remove we get from primary sources the greater the warp. Has anyone ever played the "telephone game"?
Honor and remember the innocent lives lost. Shine the spotlight on the bad decisions and horrible acts the precipitated the tragedy. Take away a knowledge that an eye for an eye is and endless loop.

To all "victims" everywhere | 9:26 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I have but one comment. Get a life people. There are two types of people in the world. Those who look forward and those who are forever looking backward. I feel nothing but pity and a little contempt for the latter, while I have great respect and admiration for the former.

Move on | 9:45 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Yawn!

James | 10:04 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Wounded Knee,

Yes, in comparison to the government, the Mormon Church is a class act.

However, right now the United States Congress, the house and senate, are considering a bill that will give a formal apology to the American Native people for the governments miss treatment of them. This is a class act, pun intended.

I wonder if the Mormon Church is up for this also.

micciomao | 10:11 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Stealing the title of an important book on the Germans and the Holocaust, in our efforts to forgive and forget, we need to heed the cautionary tale that Ordinary Men can do inconscionable things. It gives one pause.

An apology from Cedar City | 10:17 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I, too, feel a deep sense of shame that so many members of the LDS Church have fallen prey to arguments steeped in logical fallacies just to avoid taking responsibility for what happened at Mountain Meadows.

The fact is that members of the Fancher-Baker emigrant wagon train from Arkansas were promised safe conduct to Cedar City if they would leave their livestock and possessions with Paiute Indians who had them surrounded at the behest of LDS leaders. The emigrants gave up their arms and property and were divided into three groups, one of them containing 17 young children who were spared. The people in the other two groups were marched by Mormon militiamen back to Cedar City. After about a mile, John Higbee of Cedar City (on orders from John D. Lee) shouted a pre-arranged signal: "Brethren, do your duty!" At that point, each militia member turned and shot the person he was guarding. In all, some 120 people were killed, including women and older children.

Whether we want to admit it, folks, our ancestors did this terrible thing. Members of our church did. Invoking memories of Haun's Mill or Nauvoo or even Carthage does not change that fact. That's like a 6-year-old trying to justify hitting his 4-year-old sister by saying, "She hit me first!"

I don't speak for the LDS Church or its leaders, and I certainly don't profess to speak for President Hinckley or the Brethren. However, my ancestors were involved in the tragedy that was/is Mountain Meadows, and on behalf of my family, I apologize to the descendants of the Fancher-Baker party.

What we did was an abomination in the eyes of God and right-thinking people everywhere, and it's high time we told the truth about it.

Matrowl | 10:26 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Boy, I have to agree with "all apologies". I am also a proud member of the LDS church, but the massacre happened, it was horrific and we have to stop making excuses for it. No single act by persecuters of the early church came close to the atrocity commited at Mountain Meadows. I know that's hard to accept, but it's the truth.

I hate the way that polemics have distorted this and other shady aspects of our history as much as anyone, but surely we can understand where the frustration and anger of Massacre descendents comes from. If the a formal apology by the Church would help close the wounds (and I'm not sure it would), I'd like to see one offered.

92Landcruiser | 10:27 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

It strikes me as odd that most of these posts seem to make the decendents of those killed sound as if they are complaining for no reason.

I get the feeling that if a wagon train of 120 Mormons were slaughtered by U.S. Troops as they crossed Wyoming, you can bet the Church and the decendents would have a vastly different persective. Some of you guys need to grow up and come to terms with what a horrible event this was and there was no excuse for it to have happened.

Mark | 10:28 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

There was an official apology by the church, but because it was a while back and most people didn't even know about the MMM then it was forgotten.

James | 10:29 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

An apology from Cedar City,

Thank you for your powerful Post.

BY Alum | 10:37 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Last week I finished "American Massacre" by Decker. Earlier I finished "Under the Banner of Heaven" I have some questions for the audience: Did the LDS Danites in Missour and Illinois burn gentile farms and appropriate their property to be consecrated to the Church? Did the Fancher party pick up several (Many?) disaffected Saints in Springvile? (which at that time had many according to Decker) Who were these saints? After MMM did LDS women from area collect clothes and valuables from the corpses? Were the surviving children from the MMM correct in stating, at a govt inquiry, they saw local LDS women wearing their Mothers clothing and jewelry? Was it true that (some?) of the Fancher's hard currency ended up in Church Coffers? Is it true that one of the Fancher Party's several carriages ended up as property of BY? What became of the carriage? Where was LDS apostle George Albert Smith in the month prior to MM? What did BY mean when he came down to the Cairn at MM, in the 1860s, that said "Vengance is mine thus saith the Lord" when he said "Vengance is mine and I have taken a little." Gotta go go I have more comments

GVS | 10:50 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

This recent phenomenon of judging the distant past by present values and then expecting an apology or restitution appears to be a concept right out of the middle east.(some are still fighting the Crusades) We should of course learn from the past and try to avoid the perceived wrongs, and move forward. This appears to be what the LDS Church is trying to do.
Are we doing anything today in our culture that would compare with this(MMM), Haun's Mill, the Holocaust, or slavery? I wonder how the folks 150 years from now will view the practice of abortion for convenience? Or perhaps the moral causes of the decline and fall of the United States of America in the Twenty-first Century? I wonder.

MAR5HA | 10:52 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

YES, IT WAS A MISTAKE, BUT JOHN D. LEE SHOULD NOT OF BEEN KILLED FOR IT.
CAN YOU IMAGINE RIDING OUT IN A WAGON TO MM TO BE SHOT, WHERE WERE HIS ORDER GIVERS THEN ??
HE WAS GOING ON ORDERS FROM HAIGHT, IN CEDAR CITY.
IT IS A TERRIBLE THING THAT HAPPENED, I AM SORRY. I AM ALSO SORRY FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PIONEERS, AND JOSEPH SMITH.
LET THIS REST IN PEACE, THE WAY THE LORD WOULD WANT IT TOO !
DID ANYBODY EVER LOOK AT ALL THE GOOD JOHN D. LEE DID ?

utahkeith | 11:02 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

It is a very sad thing that happened. The Church has formily appologised, John D. Lee was held liable by Brigham Young and Executed! It is very sad no doubt, but it is amazing not many talk about why the "Mormons" came to the Salt Lake Valley to begin with, and didn't go all the way to California. They wanted to simply be left alone! Not many talk about the persecution they underwent, rapes, murders and stuff they went through. Nobody talks about the fresh water springs this group probably poisoned a few days before the "masecre" which granted isn't an excuse to murder them, but there were Missourians among them who persecuted the Saints while in Missouri. All of this IS NO EXCUSE for what SOME of the Cedar City Saints did, and it is history that cannot be changed. There is a monument there now, so GIVE IT UP! Everyone feels bad, we do, but get over it, acknowledge it and quit picking on the church over it, END OF STORY.

Utah | 11:06 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

The blame game continues. Many will only accept and apology if the Church comes out and says they were responsible. Anything short of that will not satisfy them. The Church has made many statements about this horrible tragedy in the Ensign. The Church taking care of this memorial is a sure sign that they are sorry for what happened and are going to maintain the dignity of the site for remembrance of the victims. God's wrath for those who committed this violence will be surrer and more suited than anything man could have done.

The Church cannot and should not make apologies for the Church based on the action of a few who were not following the leaders and the tenants of their religion.

In another article a blogger claimed the hymn "Praise to the Man" was part of the churchs statement that they were going to get even with those who killed the prophet. Satan will implant in the minds of many people thoughts that have no relationship to what is actually happening.

To UtahKeith | 11:35 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Contrary to your claim, the LDS church has not formally apologized for this incident. That's what a lot of this discussion is all about. Please don't make false claims in defending your position.

Mike R. | 11:40 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

One thing that most of you forget to remember. The Church didn't murder these people. Some demented members of the Church did. Some of their ancestors have said they are sorry today. The Church owes no one an apology.

I think that the Church has done enough by taking care of the site, making it accessible, erecting monuments, and caring about the feelings of the decendents and working with them.

The comparison to Wounded Knee that some of you are making is not a fair comparison. At Wounded Knee, those killed there were killed by representatives of the government (the Army), doing the business of the government (forcing relocation to reservations). These awful men who perpetrated the crime at Mountain Meadows while they were members of the Church, did not kill these people at the behest of the Church. It also wasn't Church policy to kill them.

I had some of my ancestors killed in Missouri and some died in Nauvoo and on the way to Utah. I don't hold animosity toward either Missouri or Illinois. I don't even hold it against those who caused these things to happen. They have their reward and will be punished by God.

Same thing as the perpetrators of the massacre. They have their reward and will be punished by God for their crimes.

Basically, these people need to take the advise of the band The Eagles and "Get Over it". Listen to that song some time.

Josephs Myth | 11:46 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I'm not one who puts a whole lot of store by institutional apologies, especially ones that come decades or centuries after the eventsin question. Nevertheless, I think some of the commenters here are conveniently failing to remember that the Mormon church has gratefully accepted official apologies from both the state of Illinois, and the state of Missouri in recent years for actions that were carried out against Mormons many years ago in those states.

I sense here a certain shrillness and haste to criticize the MMM victims' descendants for even daring to hope for a Mormon apology for this atrocity. This reflects poorly on the commenters and suggests their own insecurity about their beliefs. It is not helpful to blame the victims, even if the "victims" are, understandably, a bit skeptical about Mormonism.

It is time for us to become more adult in our thinking about this blemish on our past. There is evidence that our leaders are doing just that -- Gordon B. Hinckley's comments in the last few years, while not perfect, have pointed us in the right direction. The Turley article in the September Ensign is a huge step forward. And yet, I am told, he is receiving hate mail from church members just for telling more truth than has ever previously been told by official sources on this topic.

Let's grow up, stop whining, and be a little more Christ-like. Isn't that our real mission?

So sorry. Excuse me for living. | 11:53 a.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Cedar City apology: "Whether we want to admit it, folks, our ancestors did this terrible thing."

Wrong. Maybe your ancestors did. Mine did not.

"Members of our church did."

And therefore...? "Members of our church" have done all sorts of bad things. I feel not the least compunction to apologize for their evils, any more than I seek to take credit for the enormous good done by so many other members of our church.

"However, my ancestors were involved in the tragedy that was/is Mountain Meadows, and on behalf of my family, I apologize to the descendants of the Fancher-Baker party."

Good. Then apologize for your own ancestors. Leave mine out of it. My 19th-century ancestors, unlike yours, didn't murder anyone.

"What we did was an abomination in the eyes of God and right-thinking people everywhere, and it's high time we told the truth about it."

Wrong. Right-thinking people realize that just because your 19th-century ancestors murdered people, that doesn't really mean jack today. Not even about you, despite how driven you may feel to accept responsibility for the murders they committed, and certainly not about me or about the LDS Church.

6th Gen Cache Valley Mormon | 1:35 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

Hear, hear! I agree wholeheartedly with "So sorry. Excuse me for living."

John | 1:35 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I agree. Fanatasism and extremism have no place in our society. Our society has changed in the last 200 years. Can we judge yesterday's actions by today's standards?

It was a different world. It was a different place. Does anyone really believe that frontier justice was justice?

If you feel you must go the Mountain Meadows to excercise tyour first amendment rights, it's OK with me. But please remember that there are constitutionally protected rights to private property too. And the LDS church has apparently granted organizations of survivors to assemble on church property. They did not have to assemble outside or on BLM land.

I am a member of the church and I have visited the memorial at Mountain Meadows. I was saddened and ashamed that my people were involved in this terrible massacre. That's what it was.

Individuals will feel what they want to feel. The church as an institution has expressed it's feelings by building a memorial to the tragic affair. In so doing the church has expressed their sentiments about it. It is a memorial to the victims, it is a reminder to us all about the vile consequences of fanatasism and estremism. Let us all take heed.

Marmon | 1:50 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I think we as America need to apologize to the native Americans for killing and driving them off their land too. American needs to apologize for forcing the LDS folks to leave the USA as well and allowing Missouri to exterminate the mormons.

Don Morrison | 2:02 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I was surprised the Deseret News reporter would take liberties with the "facts" surrounding such a controversial story. Church leaders ordered the massacre? Give me a break. There is no evidence of that, and it is contrary to every other adversarial Mormon encounter of the era.

Hopeful | 2:54 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

For me, the adage "actions speak louder than words" seems more than appropriate here.

Many have commented about living lives that would eliminate such atrocities in the future. Okay, let's do it and stop talking about it. We can start with the simplest little actions.

If we learn anything about this and any number of other horrible atrocities, I hope we can decide to eradicate prejudice and instant hatred on a personal level.

Instead of ranting on some blog about this or some other "cause", try not hating the person who thinks their rush to drive home is more important than your safety. Try to provide opportunities for those who have less than us. Lift those who need our help and stand strong against demeaning or belittling influences.

Let's all seek to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

I'm hopeful that those taking action - in large-scale efforts as well as personal improvements - will be lauded for doing something instead of just saying something.

Which is more difficult and lasting after all?

missing a gene | 2:54 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

wow what was that parable if you have not charity? some of these comments are comming from some people who go to church every sunday and treat the "others" as this was discussed as being a reason why this happened anyway. lack of education but sure will take the indian money based on looking back and sets food on your table in many ways.. the winter Qtr. episode = saved by the natives from the mobs= no more rapings , beatings, etc. allowed as Brig. Young was wise enough to sign the treaty to stay on native land and be protected by the dept. of interior..how hippocritical to use indians then as well as now- so don't forget the past=won't get fooled again!

Joshua | 3:01 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I'm sorry but a survivor of the attack deserves an appology but the family of the survivor i don't think so NOTHING happened to you. That would be like telling Al-Quada to appoligise for Sept. 11 2002 in 150 years when we are all dead and buried!

Doris | 3:25 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I want my ancestors' property in Nauvoo returned to our family, plus a check for the increased value since 1847. Now!

No pioneer ancestors | 3:28 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

I am active LDS, converted in England, living in the U.S. No pioneer ancestors, no American ancestors. No axe to grind.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre was an atrocity. It was performed by apparently normally good men who acted in an evil manner. The local leaders who ordered it were in those moments evil. Period. That religious family men would kill other family men, women and children, is incomprehensible. We have no idea, unless their descendants release journals etc., how they lived with the guilt of their horrendous actions, and it would be hard to believe that they would not have had nightmares at the least. Several investigations (not just by the Church) apparently were conducted into the events, and only one man was tried, convicted and executed for the crime. That more should have been punished seems obvious. However, my understanding is that the God I worship is a just God, and no-one at all will escape his judgment.

We will never know what good might have come from the lives lived by those murdered, or by those who spent the rest of their lives in a tormented state.

Nothing can change that terrible event, and the best thing the descendants of all can do is to live lives that their ancestors would be proud of. There is so much of a positive nature that can be done instead of perpetuating hatred and mistrust.

Again, this LDS person cannot apologize for ancestors, because none of mine were here. But I would say to any whose families were murdered, that as an LDS member, it should never have happened, and I pray for peace in all your lives.

Raymond Takashi Swenson | 3:29 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

The fact that the LDS Church has published an account of the massacre on its web page and in its official magazine shows it admits the responsibility of individual Mormons for these murders. It is obvious that some of the descendants would not be satisfied without a mea culpa that indicted Brigham Young, but that is not justified by the facts, so it's not going to happen. There is no more collective, inherited guilt for this crime than there is for the complicity of a few Jewish (and Roman) people in the unjustified killing of Christ. Those who want all modern Mormons to be held guilty of past crimes by a few are following the same logic as Hitler and other anti-Semites.

Many of the persecutions of early Mormons were official policies of Missouri and Illinois, and the Federal government. Are American Mormons, especially in Missouri and Illinois, both guilty as Americans and victims as Mormons? Do we apologize to ourselves?

Assuming liability for past criminal acts by other Mormons has never been part of being baptized into the LDS Church, neither for my Swedish ancestors who arrived in Utah in 1896 nor for my Japanese mother who came in 1952.

Rather, the potential of people in all nations and cultures to commit horrific acts is apparent from history. As recently as 1942, President Roosevelt imprisoned 100,000 Japanese Americans for three years (probably causing over 120 early deaths in captivity of the oldest and youngest prisoners) for purely racist reasons but justified by "war fears". War fear was also the rationalization used by the perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. FDR is usually honored, but he also committed a terrible crime, over the objections of the Attorney General, that more than matches the Mountain Meadows Massacre in magnitude.

Voice of Reason | 4:25 p.m. Sept. 10, 2007

All this discussion is very interesting but personally I am waiting for a formal apology from the Catholic Church brcause one of my ancestors was killed by Al Capone.

I have a friend who grew up in Hispanola who is turning blue waiting for a formal Apology from Spain because Colombus took improper liberties with her great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother.

I'm sure if you dig deep enough and hate long enough you will discover that someone "owes" you too.

Oh by the way, in my job i work with several Japanese gentlemen who had family members in Hiroshima. Personally I'm very grateful that thay don't follow this sort of illogic.

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