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Romney ancestor fled Army, joined LDS Church
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Anonymous | 12:58 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
What your point? There is a cowardice gene?
J.Dahl | 2:10 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I'm tired of everyone focusing on Mitt's religion or now what some
distant family member did 100 yrs ago. USA needs to focus on his political
aspects and what he can do for our great nation.
Anonymous | 2:55 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Enter commentIs Wilken running for President? No. Mitt Romney, a completely
different person is.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 3:51 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
And if a presidential candidate's ancestor fled the Union army to join the
Confederate army during the Civil War that would mean...? Oh yeah... nothing to
see here. Move along.
Mark | 6:52 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
One point is to get some pub for an obscure conference no one would have written
about otherwise.
The other is to keep alive the chickenhawk slur. See, not only did his sons not serve, but his ancestors deserted and became polygamists. Connect the dots, folks, he's clearly unfit to serve as president!
Can't wait to see the articles on other candidates' great-great-grandparents. Oh wait--there aren't any.
The other is to keep alive the chickenhawk slur. See, not only did his sons not serve, but his ancestors deserted and became polygamists. Connect the dots, folks, he's clearly unfit to serve as president!
Can't wait to see the articles on other candidates' great-great-grandparents. Oh wait--there aren't any.
stan | 6:56 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
This is NOT news. What bearing does this have on Romney running for president?
Zero. And Romney isn't my choice for prez, by the way. I don't think
he can win. But printing something so horribly off-subject and unrelated to
what goes on today is just irresponsible by your newspaper. It's looking
for a tie where there is none. If you don't have anything informative,
like a plan for fixing Social Security, healthcare, the war in Iraq, or the like
coming from the Romney camp, then don't print anything at all.
Mid Atlantic | 7:00 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
This is hardly news. If the Deseret News going to carry this, let's comb
through the ancestry of all the other presidential candidates and find what all
their ancestors did. Some of the stories of how their ancestors came to the
country could be quite interesting.
And in reference to the previous commentator ("Is there a cowardice gene?"), when I clicked on the comment page it brought up an ancestry.com ad which says "Maybe it runs in the family...Meet your ancestors." I'm not kidding.
And in reference to the previous commentator ("Is there a cowardice gene?"), when I clicked on the comment page it brought up an ancestry.com ad which says "Maybe it runs in the family...Meet your ancestors." I'm not kidding.
Jeff | 7:04 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Oh yes, this is the golden nugget of disgrace, just what the Democrats and his
Republican foes were waiting for.
This will make all forget that he built a strong and successful company oversaw the Olympic mess through to a fantastic result, and governed in a seemingly solid manor in Mass.
Come on writers. I am constantly incensed of what is called "news" today. If I held that same standard of my long dead relatives to myself I would be marked as a slave trader today. Wait, maybe I am. I mean I actually make my kids work hard depriving them of their constitutional right to do nothing and learn nothing.
Step up Davidson, give us real news. Write of the critical things actually affecting our current living circumstances.
This will make all forget that he built a strong and successful company oversaw the Olympic mess through to a fantastic result, and governed in a seemingly solid manor in Mass.
Come on writers. I am constantly incensed of what is called "news" today. If I held that same standard of my long dead relatives to myself I would be marked as a slave trader today. Wait, maybe I am. I mean I actually make my kids work hard depriving them of their constitutional right to do nothing and learn nothing.
Step up Davidson, give us real news. Write of the critical things actually affecting our current living circumstances.
Demo | 7:21 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Who cares? Don't you have something better to report on?
Joe | 7:28 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I think the point was intuitively obvious to the most casual
observer---reporting what went on at the Utah State History Conference.
Minnie | 7:36 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Sounds like a good gene to me. One that is free thinking, and prone to good
leadership. One that we need in our future President.
Why in the world | 7:48 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Do we care about stuff like that. It's not like Romney himself deserted the
Army and gave information to the people the army was going after. It's noot
like Romney is giving information to Al Quaeda. People only care about such
things if it's against a Republican candidate. Remember that Bill Clinton
fled the country to avoid the Vietnam War, and he was still elected President
for 8 years. So let's not crucify Romney for something that happened 150
years ago.
taylorAZ | 7:54 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Very entertaining piece... 150 year old ancestors shouldn't help or hurt
candidates.
Jim III | 8:05 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
After reading the story, I cannot understand how anonymous could call the
desertion of Mitt's ancestor cowardly. Carl Wilcken was honored by his
native country for bravery. The Iron Cross is roughly equivalent to either the
Bronze or Silver Star. He apparently was a very disciplined soldier. What Carl
saw in the American army that was going to Utah in 1857 was hardly no more than
a barely organized mob. To quote the article "He was unhappy with the lack
of discipline of the soldiers," Richardson said. "He had a low opinion
of other soldiers," as they talked about possibly hanging or jailing Mormon
leaders and "appropriating" their wives and daughters.
Wilcken saw poor protection by U.S. troops, which allowed Mormon militia to burn forage in front of the approaching army. LDS soldiers also burned many of the federal supply wagons and ran off the army's livestock."
Professional, disciplined soldiers do not carry on in such a fashion.
As for the point of the story, I also do not see how such a story has any impact on Mitt's campaign. Unless the author of the story was just trying to fill column space. If Lee Davidson was to research his family history, he would more than likely find some ancestors that have done worse than what Carl Wilcken had ever done.
Just for the record, according to my military file, I have 22 years of military service between the regular army and the active reserves.
Wilcken saw poor protection by U.S. troops, which allowed Mormon militia to burn forage in front of the approaching army. LDS soldiers also burned many of the federal supply wagons and ran off the army's livestock."
Professional, disciplined soldiers do not carry on in such a fashion.
As for the point of the story, I also do not see how such a story has any impact on Mitt's campaign. Unless the author of the story was just trying to fill column space. If Lee Davidson was to research his family history, he would more than likely find some ancestors that have done worse than what Carl Wilcken had ever done.
Just for the record, according to my military file, I have 22 years of military service between the regular army and the active reserves.
samhill | 8:15 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
"Anonymous" asks (somewhat duplicitously, I suspect), "What [sic]
your point? There is a cowardice gene?"
You are asking about the point of an article about seminars about history at a Utah stat historical conference???
The "point" of the article IS the article. It is meant to inform people about some part of the past. In this case, one of the ancestors of a candidate for President.
Regarding your implication of cowardice, if the article is correct, it would seem Mr. Wilcken, a decorated veteran of some very brutal campaigns in Europe, chose to align himself with a more honorable party after enduring the association of too many undsciplined and loutish soldiers who openly discussed engaging in immoral and illegal acts of murder and rape. He then risked capture and imprisonment, if not execution, to do it.
Subsequently, he was apparently deemed of such high and stout character that he was entrusted with defending the lives of some of the most beloved people among the Mormons.
None of those things seems to indicate the least bit of cowardice. Certainly not like someone asking some smarmy question about someone else’s character while hiding behind the oh-so brave moniker of “Anonymous”.
You are asking about the point of an article about seminars about history at a Utah stat historical conference???
The "point" of the article IS the article. It is meant to inform people about some part of the past. In this case, one of the ancestors of a candidate for President.
Regarding your implication of cowardice, if the article is correct, it would seem Mr. Wilcken, a decorated veteran of some very brutal campaigns in Europe, chose to align himself with a more honorable party after enduring the association of too many undsciplined and loutish soldiers who openly discussed engaging in immoral and illegal acts of murder and rape. He then risked capture and imprisonment, if not execution, to do it.
Subsequently, he was apparently deemed of such high and stout character that he was entrusted with defending the lives of some of the most beloved people among the Mormons.
None of those things seems to indicate the least bit of cowardice. Certainly not like someone asking some smarmy question about someone else’s character while hiding behind the oh-so brave moniker of “Anonymous”.
Brainwrap | 8:21 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Great Grandpa's aversion to military service seems to have been passed
down. Neither George W., Mitt, nor any of Mitt's sons have seen the inside
of a barracks.
Bill | 8:20 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
"The Romney campaign declined to comment on this story." Did you
expect them to?
What is your point with this story?
What is your point with this story?
Tumbleweed Tom | 8:24 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Dear Anonymous: Cowardice? Duh! Doesn't sound like you read past the
headline. The the point is, the man was inspired, faithfully followed the
inspiration and not only he, but his posterity for generations, was greatly
blessed. What a wonderful heritage.
JT | 8:33 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
What a lame story, who cares about Romney's ancestors?
Ty | 8:44 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Thanks for the info.....and the point is?
Staff Sergeant H. | 8:46 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I think it's great that his "ancestor" joined the LDS Church. I
did too when I was 12.
I've never been gutless enough to flee the Army though.
It may have only been the Texas Air National Guard, but at least President Bush had enough courage to serve his country, unlike Mitt Romney.
I've never been gutless enough to flee the Army though.
It may have only been the Texas Air National Guard, but at least President Bush had enough courage to serve his country, unlike Mitt Romney.
BostonTerry | 8:49 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Cowardice? Hardly! It was not cowardice that motivated a man to leave a paid
position for an uncertain, unpopular future. There have been other such men who
moved from one side to another throughout history. I'm not LDS, nor a
Romney supporter at this time, but I am impressed with the story of this man.
This is a life story that has value regardless of the political ambitions of his
decendants. Indeed if he was unimpressed with the US Army for lack of
discipline and other failures, given his record with the Prussians, this is an
amazing story. The story of this historical figure, Carl Heinrich Wilcken,
deserves to be told in places other than the context of this presidential
campaign. Here in New England I often visit sites of the American revolution.
At each site there are multiple stories about the paid (mercenaries) or native
British soldiers who left the British Military to fight on the American side.
Many great men of our own American revolution were the result of such actions,
and I have no doubt that at least some of the success of our early fighting
citizens were the result of men similar to Mr. Wilcken. These same British
deserters became contributing members of American society. The lead paragraph
of this story, in attempting to disparage Mitt Romney, missed the mark as far as
I'm concerned.
Who Cares? | 8:50 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
And why is this so important?
Deseretian | 8:51 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
First, I'd like to point out how stupid it is that the press continues to
talk about Romney's ancestors. I'm yet to hear about Clinton's
grand parents, much less her great-great-grandparents. STUPID! Secondly, Charles
Henry did not show any cowardice; rather, he showed smarts. He chose the better
army. People should be focusing on the amazing fact that Mormon commandos held
off a federal army without bloodshed.
Deseretian
Deseretian
Anonymous | 9:12 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Someone mus be running scarred to have to go back 150 years to find dirt on
someone. Wake up America.
Anonymous | 9:20 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
i feel bad for writers investing so much energy into columns few if any read
beyond the first few sentences. seriously, hook up with a charity. make a
contribution.
John Brown | 9:21 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Cowardice? After he distinguished himself in Europe? And without any real
fighting with the Mormons? And against a smaller foe?
Someone in Brazil | 9:28 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
No such thing as a cowardice gene.
JGolden | 9:36 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Fascinating story...bwahahahahahahahaha
Somewhere in my woodpile, I have an ancestor who "jumped ship" on Lake Superior...Guess that makes me the off spring of an illegal alien???
In another part of my family woodpile, I have no doubt, an ancestor who ripped that tag off of his pillow...egads...off to the Point of the Mountain for us...bwahahahahahahahaha
Go...Mitt...GO
Somewhere in my woodpile, I have an ancestor who "jumped ship" on Lake Superior...Guess that makes me the off spring of an illegal alien???
In another part of my family woodpile, I have no doubt, an ancestor who ripped that tag off of his pillow...egads...off to the Point of the Mountain for us...bwahahahahahahahaha
Go...Mitt...GO
LB | 9:44 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Yeah, so what's the point? If some idiotic journalist found out that
Hillary's great, great, great grandmother was a prostitute, does that
disqualify Mrs. Clinton from running for president? News reporters are so much
under the pressure of writing a sensational story that they'll grasp the
absurd and write about it just to sell a newspaper!
jeff | 9:55 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Is it a cowardice gene to walk away from a group planning on raping and killing
women? Is that a coward or a real brave man? What would you have done in the
same situation?
Alberto Heber MartÃnez Tejera | 9:53 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Incorporar el comentario.Si el argumento para criticar a Mr. Romney consiste en
cuestionar lo que hizo un antepasado suyo hace 150 años , ello
delata y pone en evidencia que sus oponentes , no tienen nada malo que decir del
candidadto Romney.
Esto es sin perjuicio de considerar que dicho antepasado obró bien, en aquella circunstancia.-
No es bueno emitir un juicio de valor sobre hechos históricos con criterios y perspectivas actuales.Para intentar ser objetivos , debe el historiador o quien aprecie la historia ubicarse en el contexto socio-cultural para comprender exactamente lo ocurrido. Pero mas allá de este punto , me parece absurdo , hasta rÃdiculo que se exhume lo que hizo un pariente hace un siglo y medio , para disminuir o tratar de deteriorar la imágen de un candidato.Creo que ello habla de la pobreza , de la carencia de verdaderos argumentos contra las ideas y la figura del sr. Romney.Constituye además , la utilización de esta clase de argumento, llamado "argumento ad hominen" , en latÃn "argumento contra el hombre" por antonomasia al argumento contra las ideas.En todo caso una campaña electoral debe ser una contienda de ideas ,entonces no puede descalaficarse una idea por medio de la descalaficicación del hombre.En este caso , la descalificación no es siquiera por un acto innoble o supuestamente innoble , del propio candidato, sino por un acto ejecutado , llevado a cabo en otras circunstancias ,de un pariente lejano y por un hecho ocurrido hace 150 años
Creo , para bien de los estadounidenses , que los candidatos y la prensa debieran exponer las ideas de los mismos , para luego, el pueblo elija bien.-
Esto es sin perjuicio de considerar que dicho antepasado obró bien, en aquella circunstancia.-
No es bueno emitir un juicio de valor sobre hechos históricos con criterios y perspectivas actuales.Para intentar ser objetivos , debe el historiador o quien aprecie la historia ubicarse en el contexto socio-cultural para comprender exactamente lo ocurrido. Pero mas allá de este punto , me parece absurdo , hasta rÃdiculo que se exhume lo que hizo un pariente hace un siglo y medio , para disminuir o tratar de deteriorar la imágen de un candidato.Creo que ello habla de la pobreza , de la carencia de verdaderos argumentos contra las ideas y la figura del sr. Romney.Constituye además , la utilización de esta clase de argumento, llamado "argumento ad hominen" , en latÃn "argumento contra el hombre" por antonomasia al argumento contra las ideas.En todo caso una campaña electoral debe ser una contienda de ideas ,entonces no puede descalaficarse una idea por medio de la descalaficicación del hombre.En este caso , la descalificación no es siquiera por un acto innoble o supuestamente innoble , del propio candidato, sino por un acto ejecutado , llevado a cabo en otras circunstancias ,de un pariente lejano y por un hecho ocurrido hace 150 años
Creo , para bien de los estadounidenses , que los candidatos y la prensa debieran exponer las ideas de los mismos , para luego, el pueblo elija bien.-
Curt Allen | 10:05 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Lee, Thanks for another excellent article, re: Utah War.
Tony McGuire | 10:09 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Cowardice gene. Hadn't considered that. Guess I'll have to change my vote.
As pointed out, this kind of 'digging for dollars' reporting got old a loooong time ago.
PLEASE stop trying to make news, and get back to reporting it.
Anonymous | 10:13 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
No, I would say it's more of an integrity gene.
But geez, this is 150 years ago, get on already!?! Do you really care if a presidential candidate is descended from a slave or a slave owner, from a US army deserter or Mormon president bodyguard?! That's moot to me, I care about his ability to lead the country.
But geez, this is 150 years ago, get on already!?! Do you really care if a presidential candidate is descended from a slave or a slave owner, from a US army deserter or Mormon president bodyguard?! That's moot to me, I care about his ability to lead the country.
Trevor Dorr | 10:13 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
What is the point of this story? Well, a couple of possibilities:
1. The United States has been fighting militant fanatical religious groups forever
2. People who "hear voices" are more suceptible to joing fanatical religious groups
3. The irony that the reddest state has a war named after itself
4. Mitt Romney, like many mormons, has polygamist ancestors. Maybe Utah should stop persecuting them
5. America is a theocracy and the candidate's religion matters so much that we have to analyze 150 years of their family history
1. The United States has been fighting militant fanatical religious groups forever
2. People who "hear voices" are more suceptible to joing fanatical religious groups
3. The irony that the reddest state has a war named after itself
4. Mitt Romney, like many mormons, has polygamist ancestors. Maybe Utah should stop persecuting them
5. America is a theocracy and the candidate's religion matters so much that we have to analyze 150 years of their family history
Anonymous | 10:17 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I think its ridiculous. What does this have to do with running for president?
Absolutely nothing. Also, since when did they start looking at candidates
family history?
Bedohav | 10:31 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Interesting. Evidently Mitt came by his draft dodging ways honestly.
As a Viet Nam vet I refuse to vote for draft dodgers. That included Slick Willie, Bush Lite and it includes Mitty.
As a Viet Nam vet I refuse to vote for draft dodgers. That included Slick Willie, Bush Lite and it includes Mitty.
Quin | 10:39 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
It's hilarious to see the criticism being tossed at Romney from both
liberals and conservatives: He's a "flip-flopper" because he
changed his mind (once) on abortion law! (Thompson's similar change has
been praised.) He has polygamy and desertion in his family tree! His five boys
(like most young men) didn't become soldiers! His hair is too perfect!
It all smacks of ridiculous desperation. People see Romney's qualifications and clean record of behavior, and get freaked out because he actually has the chops and the character to do the job. Anyone poking about the [Hillary] Rodham family tree for dirt or assessing the other candidates' worthiness based on their hair (even Hillary's) would never be taken as a serious journalist.
It all smacks of ridiculous desperation. People see Romney's qualifications and clean record of behavior, and get freaked out because he actually has the chops and the character to do the job. Anyone poking about the [Hillary] Rodham family tree for dirt or assessing the other candidates' worthiness based on their hair (even Hillary's) would never be taken as a serious journalist.
Hmmmm....... | 10:40 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I didn't know that the candidates are held accountable for the sins of
their great great great......this is mind numbing Mr. Davidson. Why didn't
you dig a little deeper? You could have discovered Mitt's ancestors also
contributed to "so-called" global warming by cutting down trees and
using a wood burning furnace. The DNC would've loved that hit piece.
Fredd | 11:11 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I find it amazing that everyone excepts at face value the fact the U.S. Army was
loutish and imtent on rape and murder. Why I think the LDS soldiers in this
story were persecuting the U.S. Army! They stole their livestock and burned
their supply wagons. The U.S, Army suffered through the worst winter in Army
history. Worse then Valley Forge, Bastogne, and the Frozen Chosn. The LDS
church should buy the land the Army camped at and make it a memorial. And
apologize to the Army's descendents.
Always Observing | 11:28 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
This is why many good men don't run for office. They always have to be
concerned that someone wants to drag their family members into the fray!
anonymously yours | 11:39 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I dislike Romney perhaps more than any other presidential candiadte in my
lifetime but this story is a non-story. If his ancestor was a alleged cowardly
traitor I really do not care. I am more concerned about his flip flopping. He
makes John Kerry look stable and consistent.
As for Romney's flip on abortion, it is true that he is entitled to change his mind but I think he lied during the debates against Ted Kenndey. Mitt claimed that he had a close relative suffer from an illegal abortion which is why he chose to support legal abortions. CLOSE RELATIVE=RICH MORMON. I do not see an active Mormon get an illegal abortion. Nor do I see a wealthy women getting an illegal aboriton. She would have flown to a country where abortion was legal and have had it performed in a safe, surgical setting. his story makes no sense.
As for Romney's flip on abortion, it is true that he is entitled to change his mind but I think he lied during the debates against Ted Kenndey. Mitt claimed that he had a close relative suffer from an illegal abortion which is why he chose to support legal abortions. CLOSE RELATIVE=RICH MORMON. I do not see an active Mormon get an illegal abortion. Nor do I see a wealthy women getting an illegal aboriton. She would have flown to a country where abortion was legal and have had it performed in a safe, surgical setting. his story makes no sense.
Anonymous | 11:48 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
So now they are reduced to dragging up Mitt's ancestory b/c they are hard
pressed to come up with real dirt? Puleeaase!!!
Phil | 11:51 a.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I liked this story. Does it effect what I think of Romney, NO. As far I
want, I want a president who gut the federal government like a fish. My
generation is looking at huge federal debt, and huge social programs burden.
Thank you baby boomers.
Ugh... | 12:09 p.m. Sept. 8, 2007
If that's the biggest black eye they can dig up, oooohhhh, I'm not
impressed. Totally irrelevant to anything. Did you hear that Cain killed Abel?
What? | 12:11 p.m. Sept. 8, 2007
I'm not a Mitt lover but this article is just rediculous. The writer of
this article (Lee Davidson) should be quiet about such things as they have no
relevance to the Presidential race and only cast a negative light on Mitt.
It's another example of how people like to bring others down. Very sad
indeed.
Stabbed | 12:15 p.m. Sept. 8, 2007
What the writer doesn't understand is that an article like this presents
Mitt in a false light and people will think less of him for knowing about his
ancestor. If you want to present reasons not to vote for Mitt, make them
political reasons, please. This negative article has nothing to do with his
candidacy for President so it should be irrelevant to the situation and
shouldn't be written until after the election in '08.
Grant kersey, Essex, UK | 12:16 p.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Do I detect a scent of anti-mormonism from the writer of this biased
article...most definitely! Anyone with common sense can see that Mitt Romney
would make a great President for a great country. Do not let the democratic
lefties into power like the U.K have done. The left have brought the U.K down to
an all time social and moral low!!!
ID Cab | 12:23 p.m. Sept. 8, 2007
Free family history research? I want some. These rich guys get all the breaks.
The more facts I hear about any guy who wants to run the free world, the
better.
Especially great stuff like this desertion episode. This potent family heritage would inspire Prez Rom to act in a very aggressive way. Right?
Especially great stuff like this desertion episode. This potent family heritage would inspire Prez Rom to act in a very aggressive way. Right?
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Mitt Romney is descended from Carl Heinrich Wilcken.
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