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Salt Lake powering a switch from coal to solar
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Al | 4:42 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
We also have 365 nights. Maybe we can be like Rocky and not use any power at
night, or burn that dangerous, dirty stuff when its too dark to see, or continue
to develop technology that make coal burning cleaner and our miners employed.
Oh! That's right. Salt Lake City doesn't have any miners. Do wind
turbines run on hot air?
Randy in Arizona | 6:47 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
The upfront cost may be higher, but the long term cost should be lower.
1) Coal is a constant requirement for coal burning power plants. 7 cents per KWH will go up with the cost of transport.
2) Solar panels do die, and require replacement, but the wiring should be good for decades. 10 - 13 cents per KWH should go down with the increase in manufacturing efficiency. The efficiency of the solar cells should increase as we learn to improve the technology and the solar power process.
3) Solar Power does not require long, ugly*, high voltage transmission lines. Each house or building can have its own power system. Crowded urban areas will give way to spread out areas each with its own solar power �farm� area.**
* As with beauty, ugly is in the eye of the beholder.
** Currently Sci-Fi, but it is the sensible way to go.
1) Coal is a constant requirement for coal burning power plants. 7 cents per KWH will go up with the cost of transport.
2) Solar panels do die, and require replacement, but the wiring should be good for decades. 10 - 13 cents per KWH should go down with the increase in manufacturing efficiency. The efficiency of the solar cells should increase as we learn to improve the technology and the solar power process.
3) Solar Power does not require long, ugly*, high voltage transmission lines. Each house or building can have its own power system. Crowded urban areas will give way to spread out areas each with its own solar power �farm� area.**
* As with beauty, ugly is in the eye of the beholder.
** Currently Sci-Fi, but it is the sensible way to go.
Solar is fine | 7:55 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
But Rocky was tactless in exploiting recent mine disasters to sell Solar to
residents of the city. He forgot that families are still grieving thier
losses.
Solar is great source of power, except at night and on cloudy days. So it can not completely replace fossil fuels.
I think that more research needs to be put into bio-fuels. Yes they do contribute to pollution, but matter can not be created or destoyed, so they will not put anything into our atmospere that the plants do not first remove.
Solar is great source of power, except at night and on cloudy days. So it can not completely replace fossil fuels.
I think that more research needs to be put into bio-fuels. Yes they do contribute to pollution, but matter can not be created or destoyed, so they will not put anything into our atmospere that the plants do not first remove.
Comments continue below
Fred | 8:00 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Missleading! If that is waht she realy said.
"The state has more than 300 days of sun a year. , said Sarah Wright, director of Utah Clean Energy"
Yes the State does have 300 days of sun a year it's called Saint George.
Most of Utah is not suited well for wind or Solar with the exception of a few counties like Washington for Solar. Modern US Nuclear is safe. I am all for renewable energies but lets be smart about it. Solar pannels in inversion bowl SLC will do much better in Washington county.
Ref:
http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/weatherfacts/numbersunny_city_desc.php
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/westcomp.clr.html
"The state has more than 300 days of sun a year. , said Sarah Wright, director of Utah Clean Energy"
Yes the State does have 300 days of sun a year it's called Saint George.
Most of Utah is not suited well for wind or Solar with the exception of a few counties like Washington for Solar. Modern US Nuclear is safe. I am all for renewable energies but lets be smart about it. Solar pannels in inversion bowl SLC will do much better in Washington county.
Ref:
http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/weatherfacts/numbersunny_city_desc.php
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/htmlfiles/westcomp.clr.html
Bryant Ford | 8:16 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Can someone tell me what the tax breaks are for the home owner if he installs a
solar system. What are the regulations to connect it to the power company?
dave | 8:25 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Solar power is stored in batteries for night-time use. Sadly batteries have a
realativly short life and a quite toxic to dispose of. Perhaps Yucca Mountain.
VoU | 8:41 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Dave, I believe that the majority of solar systems do not use the battery
system. Rather, they stay on the grid for nighttime use. It doesn't
eliminate the need for coal-derived energy, but it reduces it. There is no
perfect solution, but at least the DOE is trying.
Jeff | 8:46 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Are you guys really worried about solar energy? Any alternative that will help
us become less dependant on other countries is a plus. Solar energy IS coming.
It WIll get cheaper and more efficient. Just like with the personal computer,
volume will bring down prices and increase productivity. Hello gang we live in a
deseret. Yes we have cloudy days, and last time I checked, we still have night.
So because we will still need energy during those times, we shouldn't be
exploring solar? Get real. Your kids may very well be 70-80% off energy
independant.
Ideas like this are just the beginning. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/uoia-sne082007.php
Ideas like this are just the beginning. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/uoia-sne082007.php
RocDoc | 10:19 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
How about a few important facts? Solar is the most expensive way to generate
electricity, period. It is not practical at the large scale because of cost and
the need for tremendous amounts of space. Batteries are expensive, have limited
life span, and are made of toxic materials. Manufacturing solar panels
generates large amounts of toxic chemicals including cadmium. Solar panels are
not recyclable and because of their heavy metal content cannot be disposed of in
a landfill. The US is not dependent on any foreign country for electricity,
only for transportation fuels (oil). On the other hand, the US is the
"Saudi Arabia" of coal, which provides very cheap electricity and,
with today's technologies, low levels of air pollution. Further, the data
show that CO2 has never been a driver of global temperatures. Add up the FACTS,
and you'll vote with me against wasting taxpayer money on solar power.
Professor | 11:05 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Rise is CO2 levels historically follow rise in temperature. Rise in temperature
means rise in plant growth, which when broken down lets off CO2.
RocDoc is right, Solar is the most expensive way to generate electricity. Just because the government dictates it will not make it effecitent, cost effective and non-toxic. (Solar cells also contain arsenic.) The government screws up most everything it gets involved in. Let the marketplace dictate what fuels we are going to use. No some government worker on some kind of religious quest. As soon as Solar cells make economic sense, they will naturally start showing up where they are needed.
If you happen to believe in Solar Cells you have the right this very moment to buy the cells, batteries, wiring and hire a contractor to install them. Just don't ask me to pay for it.
In other words, if you believe that Solar is the end all to end all, put your money where your mouth is and install it now. Unfortunately that will never happen because the global warming crowd is unwilling to spend their own assets, they demand the money to fund their to come from someone else.
RocDoc is right, Solar is the most expensive way to generate electricity. Just because the government dictates it will not make it effecitent, cost effective and non-toxic. (Solar cells also contain arsenic.) The government screws up most everything it gets involved in. Let the marketplace dictate what fuels we are going to use. No some government worker on some kind of religious quest. As soon as Solar cells make economic sense, they will naturally start showing up where they are needed.
If you happen to believe in Solar Cells you have the right this very moment to buy the cells, batteries, wiring and hire a contractor to install them. Just don't ask me to pay for it.
In other words, if you believe that Solar is the end all to end all, put your money where your mouth is and install it now. Unfortunately that will never happen because the global warming crowd is unwilling to spend their own assets, they demand the money to fund their to come from someone else.
LazyEdna | 11:28 a.m. Aug. 31, 2007
I wonder what planet you guys live on?
NEW CUE LAR power is the MOST EXPENSIVE power humans almost know how to make. The recently passed energy bill included 50 billion dollars for INSURANCE for nuke power plants because no "free market" insurance company will risk it. D"oh! And then there's that pesky waste material that will just never "go away".. get a clue.
Solar and wind and tidal power will be the big winners in the next few decades. Why? Because young people don't want to see their world destroyed by dirty, expensive, and dangerous fossil fuels or the even more deadly nukes. Your comments show that you have not studied the issues from all sides, but only from your personal bias. surprise!
NEW CUE LAR power is the MOST EXPENSIVE power humans almost know how to make. The recently passed energy bill included 50 billion dollars for INSURANCE for nuke power plants because no "free market" insurance company will risk it. D"oh! And then there's that pesky waste material that will just never "go away".. get a clue.
Solar and wind and tidal power will be the big winners in the next few decades. Why? Because young people don't want to see their world destroyed by dirty, expensive, and dangerous fossil fuels or the even more deadly nukes. Your comments show that you have not studied the issues from all sides, but only from your personal bias. surprise!
Choppo | 12:00 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Has anyone look at the number of acres of solar panels that would be required to
replace a 300 megawatt coal fired powerplane?
evensteven | 12:19 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Some utilities (I believe Murray Power is one) actually give credits for
residentially produced energy that is 'uploaded' onto the grid. While
I am not an advocate of putting solar panels on every house top, there may be
some advantage to large commercial/industrial buildings installing them,
especially is such a credit were available. Zoning ordinances may need to be
modified, and the steps would be incremental, but such a credit would go a long
way to reducing the unit cost of solar with many other benefits to the building
owner and the public.
Wonder where Rocky is on this? Oh, of course, he wants to preserve his precious RM Power frannchise tax the city collects.
Wonder where Rocky is on this? Oh, of course, he wants to preserve his precious RM Power frannchise tax the city collects.
Power Sources | 1:15 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Solar-power MAY work for buildings in SOME places SOMETIMES but for vehicles not
likely. If coal gasification would be given it's rightful due we could keep
the coal industry AND lower our reliance on foreign oil. FIRST used by William
Murdock (see here: http://www.zetatalk.com/energy/tengy11a.htm) in Scotland in
1792 not by the Nazis.
Solar-is-fine, Rocky is in the same boat as the author of this article w/ the "snappy" first sentence in relation to coal jobs. It's been said that he's been know to invite homeless to sleep in his house...will he do that for currrent unemployed miners or are they only good for exploitation? As for bio-fuels, w/ what little is being used now the prices of things like milk is already taking a huge jump.
As referenced, What will be the impact of discarded solar-panels/batteries on the environment including water? Not good I'd say. The BIG push for the fluorescent light-bulbs (CFLs) over incandescent-bulbs is already seeing environmental problems (yes, small problems FOR NOW) b/c of the mercury in them. And their risk in homes...just ask the Bridges (See here: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=aa7796aa-e4a5-4c06-be84-b62dee548fda).
With the wind-power there is ecological damage to birds...I wonder if most homes would get solar panels how that would affect birds migration with the reflection lighting? ;)
As for Nuke-power: Examples...Ask the residents of Three-Mile-Island and Chernobyl and those 2 incidents happened BEFORE the current terrorism threat level AND that's also not taking into account the nuke-waste problem. See here: http://www.lutins.org/nukes.html
Solar-is-fine, Rocky is in the same boat as the author of this article w/ the "snappy" first sentence in relation to coal jobs. It's been said that he's been know to invite homeless to sleep in his house...will he do that for currrent unemployed miners or are they only good for exploitation? As for bio-fuels, w/ what little is being used now the prices of things like milk is already taking a huge jump.
As referenced, What will be the impact of discarded solar-panels/batteries on the environment including water? Not good I'd say. The BIG push for the fluorescent light-bulbs (CFLs) over incandescent-bulbs is already seeing environmental problems (yes, small problems FOR NOW) b/c of the mercury in them. And their risk in homes...just ask the Bridges (See here: http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=aa7796aa-e4a5-4c06-be84-b62dee548fda).
With the wind-power there is ecological damage to birds...I wonder if most homes would get solar panels how that would affect birds migration with the reflection lighting? ;)
As for Nuke-power: Examples...Ask the residents of Three-Mile-Island and Chernobyl and those 2 incidents happened BEFORE the current terrorism threat level AND that's also not taking into account the nuke-waste problem. See here: http://www.lutins.org/nukes.html
Solar is benificial to all | 1:14 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
To find our what you can do and the cost of solar go to www.ppswest.com
Dave | 1:48 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
I'd love to have wind power at my house. I live in the south end of the
Salt Lake Valley and it is always blowing almost 24/7. I guess that's why
they have those wind mills at Camp Williams. If the cities and state ease up on
restrictions of wind power for residences, I could generate electricity night
and day. Supply my own power as well as add some to the grid. I doubt my small
wind mill will affect bird migration.
I LIKE iT | 3:11 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
We have got to do something about our energy needs. I am not advocating
shutting down all coal plants, but solar and wind should be part of our energy
grid.
Engineer | 3:45 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
It would take approximately 1 square mile or 640 acres to produce 300 MW. This
takes into account roads for maintenance purposes. Photovoltaics are a good
supplement, but cannot replace coal. You need base plants such as Nuclear, Coal
or Natural Gas to supply the load when the sun doesn't shine.
As for Three Mile Island, the safety systems worked!! No one was hurt, and no hazardous radiation escaped. Chernobyl doesn't compare with today's reactors. Believe it or not, there is a greater risk to life if one of the Nation's Hydroelectric dams should break than with a worst case nuclear accident. Should the Three Gorges Dam in China fail it would kill Millions!! Chernobyl only killed thousands. Nuclear or Coal power is not evil. It can be controlled and cleaned up. Use Solar as a suppliment. For most homeowners, (unless your are rich) Photovoltaics on the roof is extreamly expensive. The payback is in decades not a few years.
As for Three Mile Island, the safety systems worked!! No one was hurt, and no hazardous radiation escaped. Chernobyl doesn't compare with today's reactors. Believe it or not, there is a greater risk to life if one of the Nation's Hydroelectric dams should break than with a worst case nuclear accident. Should the Three Gorges Dam in China fail it would kill Millions!! Chernobyl only killed thousands. Nuclear or Coal power is not evil. It can be controlled and cleaned up. Use Solar as a suppliment. For most homeowners, (unless your are rich) Photovoltaics on the roof is extreamly expensive. The payback is in decades not a few years.
Advocate | 6:46 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
With a $200,000 cash grant I could put several solar panels on my house and not
care how efficient/practical they were. It appears Salt Lake City didn't
have to justify the investment, just apply for it. I hope they develop good data
from this experiment that moves solar technology forward.
Engineers say a perfect solution rarely exists, it's all about trade-offs. Studying a diversity of approaches spreads our risk and multiplies our benefit. We should push every viable technology to it's limit. With continued development and reasonable safeguards we might experience a couple of "breakthroughs." Who knows where they will occur?
If wind, solar, tide, nuclear, coal or any other technology were perfect would we object? Heck no! So keep working. Maybe one day, one or more of them will be. In the meantime, don't ask me to predict which one it will be. And don't limit my opportunities by declaring any of them are not viable until the jury is through deliberating.
Engineers say a perfect solution rarely exists, it's all about trade-offs. Studying a diversity of approaches spreads our risk and multiplies our benefit. We should push every viable technology to it's limit. With continued development and reasonable safeguards we might experience a couple of "breakthroughs." Who knows where they will occur?
If wind, solar, tide, nuclear, coal or any other technology were perfect would we object? Heck no! So keep working. Maybe one day, one or more of them will be. In the meantime, don't ask me to predict which one it will be. And don't limit my opportunities by declaring any of them are not viable until the jury is through deliberating.
Another Engineer | 7:08 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
How much energy, is used in the Salt Palace; Day? night?
Omnivore | 8:20 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Kudos to Advocate for a reasonable point of view. The future of ENERGY will be
highly diversified; this is great in terms of jobs and pay (fewer giganormous
corporations where most of the money is funneled into the hands of the few), and
for spreading risk.
What about energy use reduction, though? How many of you folks went straight from winter heating to summer air conditioning (like my parents did)? How many take advantage of SLC's cool nights by opening windows and turning on a couple of fans? By cooling at night, and sealing by day, you can keep most houses pretty pleasant; it just takes a little more thought and execution than setting the thermostat. If you want the house to be 70 degrees year-round, it takes a lot of energy. If 65 to 75 is ok (we do 60 to 80: cozy wool sweaters in winter, and near-naked in summer), you go a long time in the spring and fall without having to use heating or cooling. It's great!
As a population, we've gotten pretty lazy and disconnected from our environment. It'd be good for most folks to get a little too hot in the summer, and a little too cold in the winter!
What about energy use reduction, though? How many of you folks went straight from winter heating to summer air conditioning (like my parents did)? How many take advantage of SLC's cool nights by opening windows and turning on a couple of fans? By cooling at night, and sealing by day, you can keep most houses pretty pleasant; it just takes a little more thought and execution than setting the thermostat. If you want the house to be 70 degrees year-round, it takes a lot of energy. If 65 to 75 is ok (we do 60 to 80: cozy wool sweaters in winter, and near-naked in summer), you go a long time in the spring and fall without having to use heating or cooling. It's great!
As a population, we've gotten pretty lazy and disconnected from our environment. It'd be good for most folks to get a little too hot in the summer, and a little too cold in the winter!
Energy Analyst | 8:40 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Neither the Administration nor DOE is pushing to eliminate coal. That's a
bad idea. Instead, solar and other renewables, as well as energy efficiency
improvements, can help us be less dependent on foreign source of energy (nat
gas, petro), have cleaner water/air, and bring new jobs to cities (renewables
actually employ 4-5x the number of workers per kWh produced than conventional
sources of elec). Just to clarify, RocDoc is incorrect about cadmium and heavy
metals -- 99% of the solar panels in use today are made from crystalline silicon
with no heavy metals. Only First Solar (Ohio) is manufacturing cadmium
telluride solar modules, and they come with a 30-year guarantee as well as a
take-back provision where the company will take back the panels at end-of-life
to recover the cadmium. RocDoc also is wrong when he writes: "The US is
not dependent on any foreign country for electricity, only for transportation
fuels" - nope, the US is importing enormous quantities of nat gas for elec
production and is building terminals to handle incoming LNG from unstable
regions of the globe to meet US demand (Nigeria, Saudi Arabia). And perhaps he
and others have forgotten about the TRILLIONS of dollars in gas, oil, and coal
(all fossil fuels) tax credits, land accessions and other favorable tax
conditions created for energy companies. Look - coal plays a huge role in the
US energy portfolio under any sane plan, including the one from DOE. The goal
of DOE is just to have solar replace 3-4% of our elec use by 2050 if you read
their plans. Jobs are very safe. We DO need a diversified portfolio for our
kids, and we might as well take a technological edge in solar. Or maybe we
should've shunned computers and stuck with typewriters.
Solar info | 8:47 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
If you want more info on solar and how to get it, visit www.findsolar.com.
It's a helpful website to find installers in your area, get quotes etc. I
think Rocky has got the right idea here. Coal is fine, esp with scrubbers, but
we have to be thinking about the future. And nuclear is **by far** more
expensive than wind or solar - it takes enormous govt subsidies just to get the
plant built. That's why we haven't had a new nuclear plant in the US
for 30 years, right...? Solar is also falling in price *really* fast. I looked
at it last year and saw it was around $10/Watt installed. Now I'm seeing
prices of $6.50/Watt. There's something to be said for making your own
power, selling it back to the grid, and doing so in a clean and quiet way with
no maintenance (occasional hose off of dust) and no moving parts!! It's
really an elegant solution.... There also ARE Utah tax credits and 30% federal
tax credits to help with cost that make solar even more affordable. I hope we
get a lot of takers on solar in SLC-- wouldn't hurt to build a small
industry here.
Electrical Power | 9:44 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
Those of you that think solar power is the answer would probably be in the
market for a solar powered flashlight. Solar will be more expensive for the
foreseeable future because it will require 100% back up by fossil fuel
generators. Battery costs and production make them an unacceptable alternative.
Utah may have over 300 days of sunshine but it has 365 nights. In order to gain
energy independence our automobiles will have to become plug-in electrics, which
will require enormous amounts of electricity. It will require wind, solar, geo
power, fossil fuels, but the only resource capable of making a difference
without producing CO2 is nuclear power. Those in whom this strikes terror need
to read up a little bit, especially about on-site reprocessing. Remember also
that the safety record at U.S. nuclear commercial plants has been 100%. No one
was killed or injured at TMI. In addition the rest of the world does not suffer
from nuclear phobia and will be building hundreds of them during the next
decade. Since countries like Iran will be operating nuclear power plants nuclear
non-proliferation is no longer an issue.
Another Gimmick | 11:44 p.m. Aug. 31, 2007
How much money is burned up in these pet projects?
This is just another energy trend. What will happen 20 years down the road is the same enviromentalists pushing solar will find some danger in it's use and be screaming to find the next "trendy" energy project. Enviromentalism is an economy to itself and makes its money by scaring the citizenry.
This is just another energy trend. What will happen 20 years down the road is the same enviromentalists pushing solar will find some danger in it's use and be screaming to find the next "trendy" energy project. Enviromentalism is an economy to itself and makes its money by scaring the citizenry.
USE LESS | 12:01 a.m. Sept. 1, 2007
I wish Rocky would not resort to hyperbole and exaggeration...it leads folks to
back away from a rational discussion.
Several Items to ponder. While I tried to read all the posts above, I do not recall reading one that suggested that we just use less energy. We leave computers, lights, HVAC systems on. We should look to use less
Be smart about your posts..most of the posts above are what I call zealotry...ademant about one side of the position. We need science and research to evaluate the needs of alternatives to non-renewable energy sources. I want someone to discover a way to turn corn into a robust, economical and emissionless way to run my car or power my home.
Innovation of this magnitude gave us many of the great conveniences that are in our homes today. I see people above complaining that solar panels have heavy metals in them, but they posted the comments via a computer that contains those same elements, but I don't here their rally cry for Intel to shut down.
EACH
Several Items to ponder. While I tried to read all the posts above, I do not recall reading one that suggested that we just use less energy. We leave computers, lights, HVAC systems on. We should look to use less
Be smart about your posts..most of the posts above are what I call zealotry...ademant about one side of the position. We need science and research to evaluate the needs of alternatives to non-renewable energy sources. I want someone to discover a way to turn corn into a robust, economical and emissionless way to run my car or power my home.
Innovation of this magnitude gave us many of the great conveniences that are in our homes today. I see people above complaining that solar panels have heavy metals in them, but they posted the comments via a computer that contains those same elements, but I don't here their rally cry for Intel to shut down.
EACH
Night/Day | 3:18 p.m. Sept. 4, 2007
To the point of no solar use at night-- solar is NOT being pushed as a baseload
electricity source. It is not out to replace coal. It is meant to offset
electricity demand peaks, and it just so happens that summer elec peaks coincide
with the solar radiation peaks hitting solar panels. That's a good
thing... No need to have solar power at night -- but that doesn't mean
it's not valuable for peak power demand offset. And the peak power is the
most expensive as well...
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A worker puts finishing touches on solar panels at the Salt Palace. The city has launched the Solar Salt Lake project with $400,000.
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