Deseret News | Reader comments: Utahns top U.S. on SAT, AP tests

Reader comments
Utahns top U.S. on SAT, AP tests

Tab L. Uno, L.C.S.W. | 1:37 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

While I appreciate both the Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret News to point out that fact that more students take the ACT than SAT in Utah, the fact that Utahns top U.S. on SAT tests really is a misleading statement. Since mostly only Utah's brightest and more advanced students usually take the SAT, it only stands to reason that Utah would score higher than national test results because more students from other states of average caliber are taking the same test while on average, more Utah students are taking the ACT instead. This apples and oranges comparison really is a disservice to the public creating more confusion and illusion than factual information that the public can make informative decisions about the state of public education.

Tim | 4:20 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

I completely agree with Tab's comment - VERY MISLEADING ARTICLE, come on Deseret News, you can do much better than this. Comparing Utah's elite against others' general masses is very misleading.

Warren | 5:34 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Amazingly misleading headline. "Utahs top US" sounds like Utah is best in nation, not merely edging above the average. Who wrote and edited this?

Comments continue below

C | 6:42 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Even the title of this article is misleading--the article cites no instance in which Utah "tops" the U.S. in SAT or AP test scores. The article simply cites statistics showing that Utah is better than the national average While, in sompe instances, Utah appears to be substantially better than the national average, there's likely a significant difference between "better than average" and "tops."

RE:Tab | 7:02 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Excellent point!

Davis Darts | 7:49 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

As a Davis alum in TX, go DARTS!

Guaglione | 8:04 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

You'd think with as well as students do on standardized tests in Utah, other states would want to copy the way we do things. Maybe teachers in other states are OVERpaid.

Jeremy | 8:31 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

This must be why so many Utahns are against Vouchers. Why would we want to subsidize private schools when our public schools are doing so well in the first place?

Tokolosh | 8:34 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Re: Tab and others. Did you read the article? They have a quote saying exactly what you said about the SATs. Read the whole article and it really isn't misleading... it credit the high SAT marks with puting our best foot forward on that test.

I agree about the headline. It would have been better to simply state "Utah beats National Averages" or something to that effect. Especially when the article had a more negative tone (in my opinion) than a celabratory tone. It pointed out many flaws in the stats and problems with the Utah system.

Darts | 8:44 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Also a Davis Alum, we've been doing this for at least 10 years! If I rember correctly over 100 students take AP calculus with a nearly 100% pass rate. Having experienced a wide variety of higher level academia (ivy league, etc.) I'd put a Davis High School Education over any other in the nation, with some schools spending 10x the money. (Where Utah attempts to equalize per pupil spending across the entire state, other states let rich areas super fund rich schools, where poor schools scrape by)

spl | 10:51 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Has anyone tried to do a per-capita look at this? It seems like many of the top schools are some of the biggest 5A schools in the state. I'd be interested what's happening at smaller schools, some of which have fewer students than the 700+ Davis has in its AP program. It's great what they're accomplishing, but sheer size warps the stats a little.

LancerChad | 10:53 a.m. Aug. 29, 2007

When I was at Layton High School in the early 2000's, I passed 1 of 3 AP tests, I still got a scholarship at BYU, and my first year out of BYU's undergraduate program I am making $79,000/year. None of my Davis High friends are doing that well even though they did better on their AP tests. In fact, they all work for Convergys in Roy or sell cars or insurance, making roughly $35,000/year and none of them are married. These guys were team captains and student body officers at davis high.
Oh yea, and I also married the head cheerleader at davis high!

GoBYU | 12:08 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

I think LancerChad is somewhat arrogant.

Dan O. | 12:25 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Maybe LancerChad's comment would be easier to swallow if he would have made the connection that high AP scores don't always translate into high salary out of college. I think he puts a lot of emphasis on the davis vs layton thing which will alienate some readers.

Mark | 12:46 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

spl has a good point. I teach an AP class and one AP stat that should be reported is the percentage of students who took an AP test from each school. I've seen this stat (but don't have it at my finger tips) and Davis, Logan and the others still do very well; but there are some smaller schools that do a very good job with AP as well and they should be recognized by the media.

We should do everything we can to encourage the AP program in our public and private schools. It helps teachers maintain a high level of academic rigor in the curriculum. It places accountability on the teacher, student and parents. It doesn't cost the state a great deal. It gives those who pass these very tough tests college credit. Any student who pushes themselves to take an AP class grows enormously. We should use successful AP programs as a major sign of how good our educational systems are working.

Billybob | 1:01 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

I agree with lancer chad, Layton is better than davis

LancerChad | 1:04 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Even if it is arrogant, what's wrong with having a bit of it? Yes, I admit that some good things have happened to me. I believe that high AP scores don't lead directly to happiness or $$$? Hard work has lead to happiness and $$$ for me. Is this arrogance? I will never shy away from being an ambitious, driven, and a motivated person. I call it good confidence, high self-esteem, and a stong self image.

Johnnyutah | 1:11 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

I think we are all missing the proverbial boat here, who wants to be called a dart?? thats the real question. Just a horrible name for a school.

Anonymous | 1:27 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

It's amazing that no matter how educated we think we are as a people, we fail to see the huge flaws in today's educational system. Think about this for a minute: We sit and take notes in a classroom for 6 hours per day while a teacher lectures on a topic. Then we read text books, review notes, and memorize facts/dates just so we can score well on a multiple choice exam when the books are closed. Then, after a short time we forget everything we studied. But at least we got a 4 on the AP test. Education these days is always about listening and writing, never doing. It takes 16 years in this type of schooling before you finally get to "do" anything productive for society. Last time I checked, accountants can use books when they do someone's taxes. Attorneys, doctors, teachers, and bankers can all use books in their professions. Nothing is closed to them.

If I were making the educational decisions for our state in grades K-12, I'd focus on three things: Technical/analytical/musical skills development, physical/creative activity, and one other thing that I forgot becuase I'm in a hurry.

AP Grateful | 1:30 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

I'm a former Utahn, who took (and passed - thank you very much) seven AP exams back in the early 1990s. I went on to dual B.S degrees, and then a top law school.

And to this day I maintain the most challenging academic experience I've had was the two years of the AP programs. (The first year of law school comes in a close second).

I could take or leave the college credit it brings. Take the classes because it teaches you skills that make you a better student and a more desciplined person. I think this is especially so when you tackle multiple tests at the same time. Get your kids into as many of these classes as you can. Let them experience what they can do when they push themselves.

Many, many thanks to all the AP teachers in Utah.

Perspective | 1:43 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Its all about your perspective. As a junior i took a full-on pillow and headphones to AP Calc everyday, sleeping through the class while enjoying some tunes. And looking back, that teacher was my favorite teacher from high school cause he was actually cool to the students and actually had a sense of humor. Did he have the best teaching skills, absolutley not. But I really liked him which helped me like math more, cause most math teachers are stiffs with no ability to relate to students. And yeah i passed the test

Dart basher | 3:15 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Yeah, who wants to be called a dart when you could be a Lancer,Knight, Eagle, Warrior, Death Eater, or Beat Digger for that matter? And those colors. Eww!

Anonymous | 3:20 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

SAT SCORES MEAN NOTHING--WAIT TILL THE POOR SHEEPLE STUDENTS TRY TO GET A "LIVING WAGE" IN DE-INDUSTRIALIZED AMERIKA...BAA BAAAAA

James | 4:05 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

There's is a saying outside Utah, that Utah has the highest level of degreed workers employed at Burger King. Companies love Utah because workers will accept low pay to stay in Utah. Why doesn't Mitt remain in Utah? How do you buy a house, raise a family, pay for lift tickets, purchase ATV's and a one ton truck when you earn $11.00 an hour? I bet the owner of Over Stocked bases his earning on a national scale. What good is maxing the SAT if you can't attend a school like MIT? Being the quarter back at Heber High isn't the same as being a QB at USC. Being a staff writer at the Deseret News isn't the same as writing for the New York Times. Sometimes you must move to get the opportunity to exceed people's expectations of you.

Miss Teen South Carolina | 4:12 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

I personally believe that US Americans are unable to do so because ah some people out there in our nation donï¿½t have maps and that I believe that our education like such as in South Africa and ah the Iraq everywhere like such as and I believe that they should ah our education over here in the US should help the US or err should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future.

Richard | 4:40 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

Guaglione, teachers in other states aren't OVERpaid, they are paid enough, unlike Utah. Our teachers do so much and get paid a pitence. We should be glad that public school gives such good education and has good teachers despite the pitiful pay.

Kiera | 4:43 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

This article should have listed the top participation by percentage of students at each school taking the test. My school doesn't even have as many students as Davis had taking the test. Smaller schools don't even have a chance to prove their worth with these kind of skewed statistics.

Bear | 6:02 p.m. Aug. 29, 2007

I loved my time at davis high school. The AP programs were fantastic and I think I passed with 3's and 4's. But the one most valuable thing I learned while attending davis high (darts) and no it wasn't during AP calc: There are more drugs in that school than in downtown Ogden. All the rich kids have money to buy drugs and they're all messed up.

Law Family | 2:28 p.m. Sept. 5, 2007

Utah would actually lead the nation in both SAT and AP test scores, undisputedly, if we would choose the right:

Approve Vouchers!

Vouchers give parents the choice of where to spend their education tax dollars. Why should public schools have a monopoly? It's not like the state earned those so-called education dollars...they were earned by taxpayers, and then taken by the government.

Vouchers would finally introduce much-needed competition into the education marketplace, and Utah Teachers would finally be paid what they're worth: The good teachers would earn more, and the lazy, unintelligent, bureaucracy-loving teachers who spend more time complaining they aren't paid enough than actually working on their lessons and preparing to teach.

Competition is good, but the competition that VOUCHERS would introduce would be VERY GOOD, vastly improving Utah's education system, and doing a massive favor to Utah students and parents alike.

The only losers would be leftist teacher unions (such as the UEA and NEA, which is pouring millions of outside dollars into defeating vouchers), mediocre teachers, and fatcat administrators who earn six-figure salaries to promote and defend mediocrity in education.

Remember to vote for Utah's children, choice in education, and giving decisionmaking back to the parents, removing it from the corrupt bureaucracy that keeps Utah's schools from being truly exceptional. Our schools are fine, but they aren't as great as they could be.

Restore parental choice to education. Stop forcing those who would prefer a private school to pay taxes AND additional tuition because we don't have vouchers, and give "underpriviliged" children the opportunity to escape public schools for the best education money can buy. Give parents choice, not excuses and teacher union propaganda.

http://www.choiceineducation.org/ for more information.

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