Deseret News | Reader comments: Paganism in Utah

Reader comments
Paganism in Utah

Oh please... | 12:59 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

The church's newspaper is doing a story on Wicca in Utah? Not only that, but OUR own misperceptions and fears have forced them into secrecy?

I think I just popped a vein in my head.

Uh, Devin Felix, maybe it is because the predominant religion in the state sees Pagans and Wiccans for what they are. They don't follow the teachings of the LDS church. They don't follow teachings of Christianity. They don't recognize Jesus Christ as the son of God. They don't even recognize God as we do.

Maybe Pagans and Wiccans have a misperception of what most people actually do believe.

still suffering from bigots | 8:35 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Witches? Wicca? When the headline said paganism in Utah I thought you were referring to the LDS conference protesters, as they are anything but Christian. But wait, I am insulting the Pagans by confusing them with the protesters, as the pagans are a much more civilized and kind group of people.

Still apppropriate | 8:41 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

I thought this was a well written article. There really shouldn't be any reason for anyone to persecute someone because they are Wicca (or whatever other name they go by). I personally don't agree with their beliefs, but as long as they follow the laws of the land, they should be granted the same rights as anyone else. This article will hopefully educate those who may still hold unbased prejudices.

Comments continue below

Lynn | 9:29 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

What ever happened to religious freedom? I thought our country was founded, in part, do to the religious stanglehold that the king of England had over the Church? One should be able to worship how they see fit, and just because one is not in lockstep with the accepted religion of a state, does not mean that they should be viewed as a freak.

I see a couple of "witch hunters | 9:44 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Above. Haven't we learned anything in these hundreds of years? Don't people know yet that the people termed of "witches" killed by burning and such were just people that may have been different? We know now that Wiccans are people that worship Gods and Goddesses as was the original tradition. It makes sense to many people that know that deitys must be both genders or no gender at all. Did you know that the term "mother nature" and "mother earth" comes from these old religions?
I am a Christian in that I believe the teachings of Jesus, but I am a Pagan in that I don't worship traditionally and don't believe in the atonement rituals. I don't advertise this, but I know there are many of us. We are part of the human race and we are peaceful and loving. Please open your minds to the oldest religions on the earth.

Mimi | 9:50 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Love one another. No exceptions.

Jerry | 11:12 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Witches have no place in Utah. Period.

Silly, but harmless | 11:16 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

I have long held the view that Wiccan beliefs are sort of nerdy and weird, and this article has done little to change that. Of course, I understand that others feel that my own religious beliefs are nerdy and weird, as well, and that's fine. There is no harm in disagreeing, so long as we agree to peacefully disagree. To my Wiccan neighbors, I say: Lay in the dirt and sink roots into your yurt to your heart's content, and feel free to say a prayer to Little Bo Peep if it makes you happy. It doesn't make any sense to me at all, but I guess that's not really the point, anyway.

Texan | 11:48 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Love one another, yes. I still think it is kind of wierd. Good article.

Interesting | 11:50 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

I personally found this article fascinating. I knew little about pagan religions (not that I'm now an expert...) and realized that many of my ideas about pagans were wrong. Good job, DMN, for spreading knowledge!

Ephraim | 11:57 a.m. Nov. 12, 2007

All Israelite romances with paganism resulted in national destruction. I don't think a Christian people could expect a different result for our society. While freedom of conscience/freedom of religion must be upheld, does a Christian society have a responsibility to discourage paganism, earth worship, and goddess worship, as a matter of national self-preservation? I think it does. While I in no way advocate persecuting pagans--as that would be anti-Christian--I think we owe it to ourselves to ensure that paganism does not become fashionable, or even mildly accepted, among us. Action has consequences, as does inaction. We cannot pretend that paganism in our midst is not a problem, and that we can stand on the sidelines and do nothing about it. It is growing, and we must live our religion more fully, and teach and lead those who have been lead astray, in order to avoid the national consequences that will surely come if we allow it to promulgate among our people.

Floopster | 12:12 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Witch hunters? Please.

My beef is with a newspaper that is owned by the LDS church printing a story on Pagans and Wiccans. You say to open our minds to the oldest religions on earth. Well, I believe my religion was in place before the earth.

I haven't said Wiccans don't have a right to practice their religion. I haven't called for the burning of witches. I haven't professed any of the sort.

I just think it is ODD that if you're LDS and you adhere to the teachings of the LDS church, that we're being spoon-fed warm stories on Paganism. Harmless? Hmmm...I highly doubt you'd be saying it was "harmless" if your own child left the church to become a practicing Wiccan.

Probably will increase | 12:13 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Belief in this kind of religion will probably increase. Why? Well if Jesus doesn't show up soon (let's say the next 25 years...) then Christianity will go away, like the Greek and Roman religions. People still want answers and this kind of thing will get looked at more.

John | 12:15 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Why ask why anyone could believe in paganism! Ask why any sane person would believe in the cult of Mormonism?

Bliss | 12:31 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Ignorance is sweet, sweet bliss for us Utahn's!

LDS in TN | 12:36 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Did "Oh please" and "Still suffering from bigots" forget that their attitude toward people of other faiths are the same attitude that got Joseph Smith and others of the "predominate religion" killed. It is the same attitude that ran me out of the state by those who felt that if you aren't Utahn you aren't LDS. Even the bigoted remark made toward those who protest outside conference is as insensitive as any anti-pagan remark I have heard. Paganism has been recognized by the federl courts of this country as a legitimate religion with all the same rights and privileges under the Constitution as Christians (including LDS), Jews, Muslims, or any other religion that is practiced in this country. One might not like what they do, may find it repulsive even, but they are still Americans. You can study their religious bellliefs at BYU even. When all is said and done, let's all be better Aamericans.

You guys don't get it | 12:56 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

I'm amazed at some of the ridiculous things you all feel you can post in this forum. Witches have no place in Utah, pagans vs. protesters, Church newspaper shouldn't print this, blah, blah, blah.

This country provides its citizens freedom of religion, so long as the practice of their religion does not infringe on the basic rights of others. That extends to everyone. Those of you who want to force your own beliefs on everyone else need to move to a country that believes in that sort of philosophy.

I was glad to see that at least one pagan was happy that the people of Utah were tolerant. Of all people, LDS in Utah should be tolerant. Those who are not, do not understand their own history.

Religions like these will flourish because they demand nothing. People flock to the easy.

Anonymous | 1:38 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Let's see: You should (or shouldn't) be a certain religion if you live in a certain place. Fly off the handle if someone related to you chooses to believe something different. How dare a Church newspaper let another religion tell their own story. There are some serious Golden Rule violations going on here. Personally, I'm glad my Irish pagan ancestors didn't slam the door on St. Patrick, but I respect their right to worship and have a voice. Some of these attitudes have no place anywhere.

Jerry | 1:42 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

There is no bias here. Witchcraft is not a legitimate religion. It belongs to the likes of Potter, etc...

Sly | 2:22 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Good article. And the comments are even better. It's important to see the ignorance behind belief systems, as demostrated by the posts above. Ephraim really cracks me up. That is one sick cowboy. And Floopster? It's rare to hear one so blatantly call for a newspaper to work as a veil.
There must be a Freudian in the group who can do a psycho-analitical reading on the bunch of us.

What's the dif? | 2:43 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Magic stones, disappearing plates, white salamanders, witchcraft, ... what's the difference?

diamond ladi | 2:52 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

I thought this was a very thoughtful article. As someone who is LDS I almost drove my sister away with having attitudes like "Ephraim" seems to, but I was young and a new member. Now I realize two things- that the missionaries taught me that the church teaches that all religions contain some truth- and that the gospel is a gospel of love- Jesus said to love one another. If we're worried about religions like these being attractive to our young people maybe we aren't doing our job as parents in teaching them with love and helping them gain a testimony.

Uh | 3:02 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Lessee here. Lots of people believe in virgin birth, ritual cannibalism (communion), and bodies rising from the dead (resurrection). And PAGANS are wierd?

Shelby | 3:20 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

For those concerned about paganism spreading among youth, perhaps a little perspective on its popularity would help illuminate the issue.

Paganism is and will continue to be popular among young people for several reasons. First, it's requirements are few and its freedoms many. For youth who may feel pressured in the religions of their parents, this is a welcome respite if nothing more. Second, pagan traditions, whether new or old, tend to be poetic and beautiful in their simplicity. What's not to love about that? Third, paganism is filled with icons and images. Take a look at the t-shirts teens are wearing these days and I think you'll see that they enjoy the emotional safety of being "branded" with icons, be they from sports teams, rock bands, or the Gap. Stores like Hot Topic capitalize on this, and pagan symbols are all over the place in such stores.

If you're worried about your children getting "caught up" in paganism, perhaps you could do more to make your own traditions more hospitable by emphasizing the beauty and joy religion brings you, rather than trying to scare them away from outside enticements.

Dave | 3:29 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

I swear I've seen this article (and picture) before. My question is what's the point? What good comes out of paganism? Why is the LDS Church's newspaper putting white frosting (a glowing story)on this creepy cake (paganism)?

There are probably more communists than Wiccans in this state. How about an article with a positive spin about them?

Surely, there are a lot more polygamists in Utah than Wiccans (or Jehovah's Witnesses, Presbyterians, etc.). Why haven't I read one single story in the Deseret News about the good some polygamists have done or how their lifestyle has helped its followers?

There has to be an overall objective to reporting by this newspaper. It would be interesting to know what that objective is and how this story helps fulfill that objective.

Until then, this story is bizarre. Further, if the LDS Church's leaders believe their work is to expand God's Kingdom on the earth, help me understand how this article furthers that expansion. What Would Jesus Do?

a different perspective | 3:43 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

People frequently attack other's actions or opinions (religious or otherwise) because they lack sufficient character to back up their own life choices. At some point they just "went along with the flock" and never had their own full discovery if the thing they were getting into was really good for them or not. Later, when someone points out a flaw in the system they signed-on with, rather than admitting they could possibly have made a bad choice, they react violently, or ignorantly by dodging responsibility for their own actions, and criticize those around them.

It sounds like some of you have some real soul searching to do. I hope you can find the thing that is broken inside of you, and heal it so you can quit embarrassing yourself with this anti-(insert platform here) rhetoric.

Pagans are peaceful folks, and have not ever joined together to shove their "one-true-whatever" agenda down the rest of the world's throat Christian crusade / Mormon missionary, etc style. Maybe a few of you could take some cues from that fact?

What? | 4:36 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

There are a number of posts that say "witches have no place in Utah" and such nonsense. The problem is what people believe "witches" are. If you read the article this helps. That is why a newspaper prints articles for information. A newspaper may be owned by a certain religion, but it is NOT that religion. It's sad how some religious people combine everything in their lives in with their religion. They can't seem to separate information as something separate. What you think of as "witches" is usually not valid. If someone studies things like Wiccans you can see that this is someone who is close with nature and universal laws. Of course, there are some who might practice "witchcraft" similar to what you may be scared of; just as some of people claiming to be Mormon are really off-shoots of that and not in agreement with you. Most "pagans" are nature lovers, peaceloving and they live among us. They are not going to leave Utah because you think they should. This is bigoted and not in the spirit of love.

LDS Parents of a Wiccan | 4:36 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

My family has been active LDS for at least three generations. A couple of years ago, one of our children decided to become a Wiccan. She was not impressed with the bigotry of her fellow Latter-day Saints - the way they discriminated against and condemned others who were not like them. In fact, she was most astounded by how "righteous" LDS were being bigots against "unrighteous" LDS! Young adults were actually picking their friends based on what callings their parents had in the Church and establishing social strata based on this perception of "righteousness."

So, she became a Wiccan. She is healthy and happy and we are pleased with her maturity and ethical grounding. And we have learned a great deal about non-LDS religions!

Interested | 5:10 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

For those of the LDS faith who have never read or somehow discounted Michael Quinn's - Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, it may be interesting for you to find out that Joseph Smith's family practiced a common version of what is typically referred to as Natural Magic...say what you may about Dr. Quinn, not many can refute his documentation which comprises more than half of the book...eliminate weird beliefs like astrology and the 3 wise men never find the manger

Floopster | 5:13 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Why is it that if one espouses a reasonable argument as to the dangers of Wicca and Paganism, it is called an attack? The Christians are the ones that are called damaged by "a different perspective." "Shelby" says we need to fix ourselves before being concerned about our children being led away by Wiccans. "Uh" calls us weird.

Wait, I thought they only believed in peace.

We were told in this article that the Wiccans are living in fear...yet in the same article it says that we are more accepting here. Huh?

Judging from the Wiccan-friendly responses, sounds like they're not so cute and cuddly nor accepting of our beliefs.

Floopster | 6:05 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Okay, I'm calling LDS Parent of a Wiccan out. You say you're active LDS for more than 3 generations? Yet you talk of the bigotry of her fellow Latter-day Saints?

Really? You're active LDS? Give me a break!

The evils of the bigoted Mormons led your daughter to find peace and happiness through Wicca.

I think that has to be the funniest post of the day!

Sly | 6:17 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Oh, Ploop, common, dream bigger, think deeper, let go of your bigotry. As you know well, Christianity can't be proved. You are in the same boat as the witches. Accept this and move on. Enjoy life, allow others to dance the dance that you're unable to. And may we all live in peace.

Reasonable Argument | 6:37 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

My reasonable argument might be against Christianity...it might be towards some other beliefs like Mormonism. Do all the people that are against Paganism know their own history and these arguments? If you do you may start to realize that someone could argue that both of these have and are (at one time or another) been violent religions. And as said above, your own Joseph Smith practiced a form for Paganism and all of the violence that took place in the past early church. And let's look at the Christian Crusades and Hitler (who claimed to be Christian) It is hypocritical to say the least!

Starlight | 8:17 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

My parents were in Wicca and raised us in it, but were rejected in their mostly pagan community because they celebrated winter solstice with a nativity in their home.

A few years back, they met up with some men in black and found happiness becoming Mormons.

Even though we still enjoy moon dances, spells and rituals together, along with a few close friends, we very much support my parents in their new-found religion and have learned a few good things about Christianity/Mormonism.

You should applaud this newspaper for telling our story. These Mormons like us, otherwise they wouldn't have printed this article. I think Mormons would like a lot of what we do and practice.

Anonymous | 8:20 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Could someone explain what the inverted pentagram on the Salt Lake Temple are symbolic of in esoteric Mysticism. Hint: the star of David symbolizes God. The pentagram symbolizes the Son of God. You can imagine who the inverted pentagram stands for? Does Faustian, come to mind?

Anonymous | 9:11 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Lynn, This is the problem, What ever happened to religious freedom? I thought our country was founded, in part, do to the religious stanglehold that the king of England had over the Church?

It was the other way around. The Church controlled the KING and he controlled all the people.

Just a quick point | 9:45 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

The DMN is *owned* by the LDS church - it's not The Church News. It's a newspaper like any other newspaper, it exsists to sell itself by selling news. So I don't find it at all astonishing that a newspaper owned by the LDS church - NOT an "LDS newspaper" - ran a story that holds interest for a lot of its readers. I'd be surprised to find this piece in the Ensign or The Church News, but not in the DMN.

Mormon Bates | 9:47 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Floopster, I have to guess that you go nuts when someone walks on your lawn. Furthermore, you are missing the real point here: Do these guys serve refreshments at activities?

Floopster | 11:22 p.m. Nov. 12, 2007

Wow. I've seen the errors of my ways. What was I thinking? I think it's high time I shed my clothes, join the drum circles at Liberty Park, start worshiping Mother Earth and canoodle with anyone that walks my way.

Thank you for directing me down this enlightened path.

Maegan | 1:38 a.m. Nov. 13, 2007

"Witches have no place in Utah. Period."

Yikes. That's the most terrifying thing I've read in a long time. Think about what you're saying. You could by the same token say "Jews have no place in Utah" or "women with short hair have no place in Utah". It makes me physically ill that someone could even think that way, let alone write it in a public place. I hope this person (and anyone who agrees with their sentiment) doesn't have children...or pets...or neighbors...

LDS in TN | 12:38 p.m. Dec. 3, 2007

A note to "Anonymous." I recommend reading the studies made by Matthew Brown on the subject of the inverted star. It is an ancient Christian symbol reaching way back into medieval iconography. It wasn't until decades after its first appearance on an LDS temple that Eliphas Levi perverted its use to Satanism. It is even found on the U.S.Congressional Medal of Honor.

Amanda | 3:36 p.m. Sept. 14, 2008

I do not believe that we have the right to judge anyone the scriptures say "Do not condemn others and you will not be condemned" Do not Judge others and you shall not be judged" Heavenly father would not want us to pass judgement on anyone. Open your heart and your mind to all even those that the church says is doing wrong. Embrase them... be there for them listen to them eventually maybe you will teach them. But, what do I know I am just another LDS Sister who believes that being open minded and accepting is one of the keys to salvation, not hatered

confused | 1:59 p.m. Sept. 22, 2008

ok, i will admit, i am confused. i was raised LDS, and i became a Wiccan. But all the LDS members i know are very warm, friendly, openminded, understanding people. Where did all these hateful comments come from? i for one have no issues with the LDS religion, i just prefer mine. but that never means that i would bash someone elses religion. is it really so wrong to educate people about other religions? any other religion? persecution is wrong, i dont care who does it or about what. if you have issues with my beliefs, ask me, but dont be rude, its very unnecessary.

16 | 10:27 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008

This is confusing me... i was born LDS. Have been LDS all my life... But i've always been looking for something more. I've been descusted at the amount of dark feeling twords non LDS in Utah. When i found the Pagans i felt as if i was coming home. Almost every kid i've talked to about it has been nice. The LDS kids who didn't just changed the subject, but when i bring the subject up with older people... they turn up thier noses. It seems to me as if it's mainly the adults that have these problems. But then again... Adults are supposed to be more mature. We ARE being mature adults here, RIGHT?

My Point of View | 11:27 p.m. Jan. 23, 2009

I have read most of the comments above. If Christians want their freedom of religion (NAMELY Mormons; which most Christians do not feel are Christian - just an occult), They should be willing to allow others to make up their mind on what they believe. If you don't want to be spoonfed your beliefs by others - don't FORCE FEED others. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - But keep your opinion to yourself if it puts someone else down - didn't your mother teach you manners?

Anonymous | 1:54 p.m. Jan. 30, 2009

Having read all comments above I am stunned by the hatred. Having been raised i Utah and being a non LDS woman I have a different view of Utah than my LDS family friends and neighbors. I can identify with the darkness toward non members in this culture. I am Wiccan and I am proud to be one, I am just as proud to be a descendant of the mormon pioneers.

My only confusion lies in the fact that having been persecuted for being a mormon, why would you then persecute another?

yvonne | 11:34 a.m. Feb. 5, 2009

This year as an adventure I walked into the largest pagan gathering in Canada the Kaleidoscope gathering. I was an outsider..very curious....I never felt so much love and compassion within the confines of this gathering that I wondered why we all cannot connect to this in the true human spirit and what we truly miss as one being in humanity. They sensed I was an outsider but embraced me as one of their own. I now believe that whatever faith you are in..love and compassion is all that matters

pagan and Utah resident | 1:50 p.m. March 20, 2009

The mormons should not prosecute others when they have been prosecuted themselves, if you do not like the article then dont read it, and everybody is welcome to live in a state you have no right to say who can live in a state and who can not, everybody should be welcome. I am more than willing to bet all of thos who wrote those rude comments toward the religon has no idea what the religon even is, besides of what they feel it is. Do not force religon on anybody, everyone has a right to choose what they believe, even the children of parents

LOL!!!! | 2:23 p.m. March 20, 2009

There couldn't be anything more pagan as far rituals go then polygamy. Satan and the virgins.

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