Deseret News | Evangelical preaches at Salt Lake Tabernacle

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Evangelical preaches at Salt Lake Tabernacle

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Marshall R Motz | 12:23 a.m. Dec. 14, 2007

While I applaud the spirit of loving ecumenism displayed by Mouw and Zacharias, their naivete (like that of most democrats and would-be liberals--and I am one of them too) is truly embarrassing and sad. I the fourth paragraph above, Ravi professes shock that the DaVinci Code attacks the purity of Jesus by suggesting that he "had sex" with Mary Magdalene. Surely he is aware that in the Mormon version of things Jesus had no less than THREE wives: Mary and Martha AND Mary Magdalene. If you want to display a loving spirit toward all men in the name of Jesus, that's fine, but surely we "theologians" dare not depart from any interest in the facts... Is Fuller---my own alma mater---still interested in THEOLOGY? WE need to love the Mormons, but surely not at the cost of abandoning even the minimum elements of objectivity. Who do we believe Jesus is, or was? Does it matter at all for this "Christian philosopher"?

livia warner10:35 pm Jan.1,08 | 11:48 p.m. Jan. 1, 2008

I have been a member of the lds church, and associated with it for 45 of my 53 years, and have never read, or heard that Jesus had three wives. I would like Marshall R Motz to name his sources please.

Chris | 12:51 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

As a member of the LDS Church, I have not heard anything of that nature taught either. Perhaps there's some quote way back in the history of the church suggesting something like that, but it's surely not part of the official church canon, and certainly doesn't reflect the real focus on Jesus Christ in every sermon or lesson I've had, ie, that He is the Son of God, The Savior of the World, and that it is only through His atonement that anyone can be saved. It's a shame that such a post would be made concerning an article about members of the two communities coming together for a night of understanding, during which one pastor apologized for the misrepresentations of LDS doctrine that had occurred.

Comments continue below

David Schmidt | 1:01 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Ha ha, Marshall, I may not have been a member of the church for 45 years like livia above me (I'm 24) but regardless of what you may have heard or read in some book written by A mormon, the belief that Jesus had wives is not an official doctrine taught in the LDS church. Granted, historical and biblical evidence may hint to such possibilities as Jesus being married, and granted the belief in LDS doctrine that to ascend to the highest realm of the celestial kingdom a man must be sealed to a woman and so the ASSUMPTION is made by many members, current (such as myself) and early-day saints (Such as Orson Pratt) that Jesus was probably married; but that is NOT official LDS doctrine. There IS a difference. You really should cite your source as Livia said. And if it wasn't PUBLISHED by the body of the First Presidency, it isn't official LDS doctrine.

royboy | 1:51 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I am thankful to Mr Motz for his information about the LDS beliefs about the three wives that Jesus had. I am 76 years old and have been a member of the church all my life and this is the first time that I have heard this one. I get my information about what the LDS churh teaches from the LDS apostles and prophets I am sure Mr. Motz gets his information elsewhere.

AZ Mike | 4:33 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Why is the Deseret News publishing this article again as if it were new? This meeting took place some 3 or 4 years ago. In light of the recent rhetoric that's taken place, this sure seems an odd time to re-hash this particular meeting.

Carole Knowles | 4:55 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Marsahll, you're out to lunch. I tell ya, it's like the anti-mormons have their own LDS literature, their own LDS beliefs, their own LDS scriptures, all of which have nothing to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I think that one day, probably Brigham Young sneezed and it sounded like he said something about Jesus and his wives and somewhere, an anti-mormon wrote that in his list of LDS beliefs.
The anties continue to go to the baker to get their cars fixed, the dentist to get their eyes examined, and the urologist to get their dental work done. I've been hearing this stuff for 30 years now, never at church, but always the same stuff coming out of the same mouths. They've learned nothing and continue to teach nothing. Silly waste of time.

David | 5:09 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I believe the comment Motz is referring to was written by Orson Pratt, in a doctrinal treatise called The Seer. The writings were Pratt's own doctrinal speculations, not official doctrinal statements of the Church (although he presents his ideas in an authoritative fashion). Maybe similar statements from other 19th century church leaders can be found elsewhere as well. But it is absurd to say that it is "the Mormon version of things." I have never heard such doctrines in Church meetings, not once in all my life. That was Pratt's version of things.

Sadie | 5:41 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I have been active LDS for 60 years and I have never been taught that Jesus had any wives. Marshall Motz needs to come forward with his source of information so that we can all be informed.

I think this meeting at the Tabernacle could be a beginning of new understanding and the apology is very much in order. However, I don't think most of the so called Christians will go along with it.

rp | 5:42 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

In the sceme of things why even speculate that Christ had three, one, or no wives. His sole purpose was to come to earth to save mankind. That is all we as sons and daughters of God need to know to gain eternal life. If we needed to know the personal and human side of Christ it would have been in the scriptures. What we do not know here we will learn in the next life. Lets not demoralize our Savior and Redeemer.

Nope | 5:47 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

As a lifetime LDS member of some 40 years, and having researched the doctrine extensively--Marshall Motz, there is no such doctrine as Jesus' 3 wives. It is simply considered logical to many LDS members, given that marriage is one of the conditions of becoming exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, that He too was married. Some have speculated many things, but there is NO official LDS doctrine whatsoever about who his wife was.

Marshall Motz, I join in the call for you to please name your source for this erroneous information. It's sadly inappropriate--and woefully contrary to the spirit in which this meeting was held--to launch an allegation that's patently false and then duck out without giving your audience the opportunity to discover your source's biases.

I would like to see more open-mindedness along the lines of Dr. Mouw among all of us. He is a true Christian, if ever there was one.

Mid Atlantic | 6:02 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

What a weird result of presidential politics that some agenda-driven anti-Mormon would look up a THREE YEAR OLD story like this and lie about the beliefs of the Mormon church in order to . . . (fill in the blank).

How pathetic.

Kerry Wallace | 6:03 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

It is a sad sad thought that, although so many TRUE Christians are finally coming around to see the truth, there are those still rooted in the evil of lies and half truths. I reach out to you Mr. Motz and ask you to embrace Jesus as your Savior and leave the evil religion upon which you, as so many others, have embraced. That is to say Anti-ism (Anti-Mormonism, Anti-semitism, Anti-Catholocism, Anti-Islamism). It is a terrible sin and just as addictive as pornography or drugs. It will slowly but surely blacken your heart and destroy your sole and if you are not careful you will end up like so many addicts...more willing to tear down other faiths than build faith in the Lord and Savior Jesus. I have seen it happen time and time again to good men who let themselves become ensnared in a web of lies and deceit. Repent, find an ecclesiastical leader who is not infected and ask for help, get on your knees and ask God to help you.

Angelino | 6:14 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

This is possibly one of the most positive and encouraging events I have heard of in a long time. I have become so dismayed and even angry at the continual drum beat as of late, between the Evangelical and LDS communities.

Bigotry comes in many forms, and far too much of it has been displayed lately,particularly from the likes of Mr. O'Donnell on MSNBC. I will say, the positive effect on myself is, that in having felt the pain and disgust after his outburst, has made me resolve to never slander another persons faith, whether it is Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Whatever.

russ | 6:58 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Can we work on cleaning up a phrase? "True Christian." Either you is, or you ain't. Skip the word, "True," say, "Christian." How can you be a false Christian? You are either a Christian, or not. Look at it another way: "True Mormon." No, the person is either Mormon or not.

Language is to clarify matters, not to... obfuscate?

Ron in OC | 7:03 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I keep looking for a response from Marshall Motz. What's interesting about these blogs, is that you can state something as fact and then run and hide. Where are you Marshall Motz??

Sam Hofer | 7:07 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I don't think these rebranding efforts to mainstream mormonisms'image will work in time to put Mitt in the big chair, but it's interesting to watch.

Anonymous | 7:24 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I think it would be great to have an annual meeting every year to comemmorate the lds and evangelicals friendship together.

Anonymous | 7:35 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I was feeling very pleased to read about the meeting until I read one of the comments noting it happened in 2004. I went back to the article and IT'S TRUE!!

I really would like to know why this article was published again 3 years later. And I also hope my comment is posted!

deseretnews.com moderator | 7:42 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

As some of our readers have noticed, this is an archive article from 2004. The only place this story can be found is in archives and on the most popular list. The story has not been reprinted. It has been searched for and read by many readers, putting it on the most popular list.

wow how we have changed | 8:47 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

To all you members who have been decades in the Church. Have you ever read the Doctrine and Covenants? D&C 1311 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
If Christ is to obtain the highest degree in the Celestial kingdom he must be married. D&C 132 says that plural marriage is required also until be backed down from that. In general conference, a member of the First Presidency stated that Christ had 3 wives, Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene. His name was Heber C. Kimball. Brigham Young was on the stand and did not correct him because he believed it also. Those who do not believe it are the leaders today, so they do not teach it. But that does not make it untrue. We also do not believe in concentration anymore even though we covenant we will live the law.

Mike Johnson Fallon, NV | 9:02 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Rebranding? The LDS Church has continually corrected misconceptions of our doctrine from the beginning of the Church. Rebranding is not being done to put anybody in the White House, but is the result of constantly being told by non-members with agendas what they think we should believe and do not understand the process by which things become doctrine in the LDS Church.

lotta-mo-hooey | 9:02 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Yet, when the converts began to file off, some to one party, and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real

Spencer | 9:52 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Mr. Motz has manifested "in word and deed" and "by [his] fruits" that he is not a Christian. Bigotry is never an acceptable approach to sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is one thing to disagree, but the spirit in which one goes about it reveals "the inward things of the heart."

I would encourage you, Mr. Motz, to "search thine own heart, and KNOW IT WELL, for out of it flow th issues of life."

Bob Pomeroy | 9:53 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Out of the abundance ... ? Is this really so important?

AZ Ute | 10:06 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

To the Messrs. Motz and "wow how we have changed":

Quit using hearsay. Please provide us your sources, ie. Name, publication, date, page, etc. Additionally, I think you meant "consecration", not "concentration". We are concentrating, you are not. Awaiting your reply.

Iron Axe | 10:19 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

To Marshall Mortz: To try and explain to you something precious as the mormon doctrine is like what the scripture says, do not cast your pearls to the swine, it is hard to teach an old dog a new trick and whatever info that you have, we shouldn't waste our breath talking about it.....I just wonder why this talk in the heart of the Mormonism was not blasted on the CNN or Times Magazine or 60 mintues or 20/20...it is because the whole media still want America to believe that we are not christians, I would love for them to invite one of our missionaries to speak in their synagogues, or at the Vatican or where ever I swear they will all feel threatened and laugh the Mormons out of town, but I it won't surprise me.....Mortz, get a life

Star Lite | 10:20 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

David
I have that book the SEER. I don't think this book is published any longer. I read the book and It really through me off just a bit with the LDS religion. It's a good thing the church doesn't live by the teachings of Orson Pratt or I would go inactive. I believe that Mary Magdalene was the only wife of Jesus. I don't think it's right just because some strange LDS person has a notion that Jesus was a polygamist should cause any great emotional disturbance... It just simply NEVER happened! People just need to leave Jesus alone. They know nothing about his person life with his wife Mary M. Guessers out there just need to leave it a lone. Don't try to bring the Savior down to your level. Won't happen! No way!

YesOrNo | 10:28 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I hear from numerous Mormons that they donï¿½t teach Jesus had three wives. Thatï¿½s a good and wise decision because substantiating such a claim is hard with the evidence from the Holy Bible. Do Mormons BELIEVE Jesus had three wives? A Mormon canï¿½t answer to that question as a big NO. Their silent answer is YES.

3 wives..didn't happen! | 10:48 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

The Man Jesus DID NOT HAVE THREE WIVES! It's only a good point of view for those lusty men who want it for themselves. Lets not get on the kick of whats good for man is not also good for the woman. Some men out there just need to get a life and quit putting Jesus in their silly lusty dreams for another woman. If People can make up something that Jesus did than we can make it right for us too. YA RIGHT!

Schmoltz or Motz | 10:48 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Please, no more schmoltz from Moltz please. Clarify your sources...but no more schmo.

PS..Since when in Christian doctrine is marriage a bad thing. Did not the Apostle Paul say something like this, "A man without the woman, or the woman without the man is NOT in the Lord". Many of us continue to believe this to be an enlightened statement coming from Higher sources than Paul.

laguna | 10:55 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

LDS doctrine continues to morph and change with the trends in modern times. Early members wouldnt recognize the beliefs of today. But that is the same with the Catholic church also.

YesOrNo | 11:14 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I'm surprised at why the Mormons are screaming at the poster Motz for the sources. A mormon should find the sources themselves. If a mormon does not know, then the Church is not telling the truth to you. Keeping that search aside, no Mormon who have posted comments to the article has answered my question. Do you believe or you dont believe Jesus was married, or he had three wives? Give me a YES or NO. Don't give me a spin!

ToLaugan | 11:18 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

What beliefs have changed in the Catholic Church from the beginning? Name one belief please.

Jesus didn't do it!! | 11:19 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

This is really depressing. Religion doesn't make much sense to me. All religions are, are man made to what ever feels good to those who want to believe in something. A true human flaw. This is just the reason why I don't put my penguin suit every Sunday and go to church. It really brings me down. I like thinking for myself. I do believe that Jesus once lived. I think people are making his life up generation after generation. I would like him to appear to me and let me know whats really going on in this mixed up world. I don't want to listen to a bunch of NO IT ALLS who really are just guessing and making it convient for themselves. Wheres the evidents?

To "Schmoltz or Motz" | 11:20 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Did not the Apostle Paul say something like this "A man without the woman, or the woman without the man is NOT in the Lord".

Show me the sources please.

Hey Yes or No | 11:28 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I'll make a small clarification so you don't get confused. The church as a whole does not believe Jesus had three wives. There is nothing taught by the church that such doctrine is true. However it is possible a small portion of LDS members might have the three wife opinion. The most common assumption... and I do mean assumption...NOT DOCTRINE.... is that Jesus was married while on this earth. That theory makes sense but has never been directly preached. So to sum it up the answer if you want a majority LDS vote would be NO Jesus did not have three wives.

What Happened?!? | 11:28 a.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Boy it took until about 7:00 am this morning (after the original comment was posted in December) to get the "antis" commenting. And then there was a big gap until about 10:30 am.

You "antis" almost missed the ship! There might have been a Mormon who read the article without you being around to clarify our beliefs for us and save our souls from the awful thing that is Mormonism. Is it because you were too busy over on the Postum article making fun of our beliefs and practices to come and post things out of your little anti-Mormon books?

I particularly enjoy the "I'm LDS" comments from the "antis." How sad it must be to go through life feeling like you have to tear down and criticize people.

Anti Nonmemebers | 12:06 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

To WHAT HAPPENED?

You are anti nonmember. So I suppose this makes you better and a judge of all. Whatever anyone one's religion is on here is their own right. I suppose it's still free speech to all people in this country. This sort of stuff is what I really dislike about some LDS members. No one else has aright to his or her beliefs. Gee, you are so righteous and arrogant. You act just the way Jesus would want you too?... arrogant and self righeous!......SORRY! NOT THE WAY OF JESUS!

Jesus did NOT have three wives rather you want believe this is your very own right. But leave me to mine.

Re: YesOrNo | 12:11 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

What does Jesus' marital status have to do with the article? And since when did our "voting" on such a thing make it true or not true? But OK, I'll play your game. I'm LDS. It seems logical to me that Jesus would have been married, as it was customary for those who spoke in synagogues to be married, so YES to the first part. Do I believe he was polygamous? I'd have to say NO to that, but I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist over someone else who thinks he might have been. Tell you what, next time you and I see Jesus, we can ask him, that should settle the disagreement, right? :)

To "Hey Yes or No" | 12:17 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

That is very interesting. The majority would vote Jesus had no three wives. And some would vote Jesus had three wives. Aren't they all from the same Church you belong to? Why the Church itself does not deny this blasphemy against Jesus if the majorty vote for NO. A CHURCH PROMOTING SPECULATIONS, ASSUMPTIONS and at the same time claiming as the ONLY TRUE CHURCH is confused as you are confused. Don't spin the whole issue by blaming the thoughtful thinkers as anti-mormons. Feel sorry for you guys!

laguna | 12:26 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

The challenge to point out changes in the Catholic church is easy. Without much thought to the subject, here are a few.

1. priests were only required to not marry a few hundred years ago, not in antiquity.
2. the Catholic church refused to believe that the earth was round and persecuted scholars who proved otherwise.
3. The chuch imposed the inquisition in Spain and Italy, killing an torturing thousands. Do they still believe this.
4. The chuch used to teach that the Jews were responsible for Christs murder. They recently apologized for this. If there was no change in belief, then no apology was necessary.

I could go on an on, but I was asked for one change in the Catholic church.

NO WAY! | 12:39 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

HEY! No one on here knew Jesus personally. So quit making stuff up about him and his life. Although, he could of been married to Mary Mag., but that is it! No others! Don't mix this with Mormon polyagamy! NO WAY ON EARTH! That is all man made arrangements and just a form of slavery. You guys who believe this malarkey need to REPENT!

I'm confused.... | 12:54 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I'm confused. Many of the comments are pointing out a distinction, which makes no difference:

"Official Mormon doctrine does NOT teach that Jesus was married (to three women or thirty!), BUT we know that Mormon doctrine DOES say that to attain the highest level of the celestial kingdom, a man must be sealed to a worth women (section 132)".

So....we do believe he was married. I personally don't care one way or another, but we do believe that. Maybe no GA has the courage to actually discuss it, but it is true. End of story.

To Laguna | 12:55 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Talk to me about their beliefs of the Holy Bible, Jesus Christ which have been changed. I'm not a Catholic, but I thought earth was flat when I was like 8 or 9 years old. I think the earth is round now after my "brain" developed.

Thomas | 12:57 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

I'm inclined to believe that if Jesus were married during his ministry (i.e. from the age of 30 to his death at 33), the Gospels would have mentioned that fairly significant detail.

On the other hand, if Jesus made it to 30 without getting married, there was one Jewish mama who definitely fell down on the job.

It's possible that Jesus was married at some point, but that his wife died before he turned 30. (The life expectancy of a wife in those days wasn't great; childbirth alone killed women like flies.) Nothing much is mentioned of Jesus' adolescence and early adulthood, so you can't necessarily draw any inference one way or the other from the silence of the scriptural record of that period. Maybe he was, and maybe he wasn't.

Rick | 1:23 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

This is so old news its pathetic. This article was Published Monday, Nov. 15, 2004 9:12 a.m. MST, but to tell you the truth... Who cares?

To Thomas | 1:28 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

Jesus was not married, neither he had three wives. If he was married, that reason would have been used against him while he was prosecuted by the Jews. Jesus's disciple St.Thomas came to India in AD 52. He taught many high caste Hindus (brahmins) about Christ. The Christians in the Southern part of India are the followers of St.Thomas' own testimony of Jesus. I have studied many written documents from the year 400 AD. The Christians in India are strong as their first love to Christ. They know more about Christ, his life and teachings.

laguna | 1:28 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

The early Catholic church got their mistaken belief that the earth was flat FROM the bible. All of the beliefs of the Catholic church were derived from their understanding of the bible. They had no other scripture than the bible. And they were wrong in many of their beliefs as I have provided above.

Laughter is the best medicine | 1:53 p.m. Jan. 2, 2008

People just like to argue and fight! It is the true nature of all humans. As for me, I respect all the views written on here. It help me understand those around me just a bit better. Also, Deseret News Thanks for the many humorous blogs. They make my day!

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