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90% of Provo rapes not reported to police

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The Other Side | 5:09 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008

I whole heartedly agree with this article, women should NEVER have to feel vile or perverse after being attacked. However, we need to be sure they were in fact attacked and not crying "rape" because they had sex and didn't want to account for it. My roommates girlfriend said he raped her and after an investigation (unnecessary at best) he was cleared and the charges dropped. There is so much pressure to be perfect in our society and some girls would rather be the victim then be accountable for having sex before they are married.

ND | 5:18 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008

This is a horrible thing that should not be happening in the Provo area. I think the rape stats are high there because it's an "easy" place to target women, seeing that theres a University there. Also women who go there might feel safer or less cautious being in Provo, and at a very religious and good school.

The idea that women should fight to the death than be raped is from Spencer Kimball in his book miracle of forgiveness.
This was during the 70's when in my opinion the church had some social problems.

"Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a MORE favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. IT IS BETTER TO DIE IN DEFENDING ONE'S VIRTUE THAN TO LIVE HAVING LOST IT WITHOUT STRUGGLE.

This has been taught to many young women within the church, because people don't see its Kimball's opinion, in his introduction it said" no intent is implied that either the writer.....is without fault.

wallyworld | 5:18 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008

I wonder how many of these rapist are members of the Church and/or Return Missionaires?? I ONLY feel sorry for the victims and their families not the perp. These ladies put their trust in these guys who appear to be good and "clean cut" but they turn up being the scum of the earth. But don't be confussed, I not saying that ALL of these guys are Mormons, maybe just some of them are. But you got to be carefull when you choose who you want to date. And PLEASE REPORT these thugs to the police ASAP.

Comments continue below

mama2 4daughters | 7:08 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008

To those who claim they would resist rather than "allow " themselves to be raped, have you ever been in a life and death situation? I have. I woke up in a car and saw the people that had hit us were dead, heard my brothers dying cries and saw my mom laying on the dashboard. Knowing how I easily I could have woken up dead deeply shook me. I felt the need to live and it's painfully powerful. I don't know what I would do in any situation because of that experience. I can strut around and act all tough but think about it really. Someone who can easily overpower you and probably has a weapon. Thats when reality sets in. Authorities say survival is what is your priority. Not "fighting to the death".

My heart goes to you survivors. Thank goodness you survived that terrible ordeal. Please don't pay any mind to any church books saying the victim is at fault. They are not experts. They do not understand what the body does in times of terror and trauma. Bless you. One rape is one to many.

Granny | 8:03 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008

It is time that this community face reality.
Sexual Abuse, Rape, Domestic Violence is happening here in " Happy Valley."
It is time that TRUTH goes forward and it is openly known where to go for help. Women and Children in Crisis Center, Bikers Against Child Abuse and Children's Justice Center just to name a few organizations.
The fear needs to stop and the education needs to begin.
Public Service Announcements would be so helpful !

Mary | 8:05 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008

unfortunately, these stats are common around the country. Rape is the number one least reported crime ever. Who wants to admit to having been raped? After all, any typical defense attorney will make you look like scum on the stand and your life is ruined in the public as well as in your mind.

none | 10:56 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008

I am older, one of my children was molested by a baby sitter. She told her mother, who approached the sitter's parents. I was never told, nor was it reported to the police.

I found out years later, and asked why I had not been told. My wife said what would you have done and I said I would have killed him. She ws right. She then said that she and the kids needed a husband and a father.

I was then and still am an active member. There are many reasons for not reporting such things.

Provo may attract (continued) | 11:33 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008

In the same line of thought, it's important to remember that there are "evil" people in the Church (or any church or authority position) not because they were good and turned evil, but because the evil look for places where they can manipulate or best perpetrate their sick desires.

I just shake my head when people tell me that they don't lock their doors because they live in a "safe neighborhood." Like criminals don't have cars!

I try to trust people but also try to keep my guard up. We can't prevent all criminal acts, but we can at least do things to avoid being an easy target.

Please, don't anyone misrepresent my words to say that am saying the victim is at fault or should have avoided the situation. Nobody EVER deserves to be the victim.

Victims' Advocate | 2:17 a.m. Jan. 30, 2008

To each of you questioning statistics, I have been a victims' advocate at the Center for Women and Children in Crisis for over 5 years now. In each of the past 5 years, we have helped hundreds of people every year, whether it be crisis line calls or actual responses to the hospital. All of the statistics are recorded, and I can assure you that the 400 number is accurate. In the last 5 years as a center, we help between 300 and 500 people per year with support groups, counseling, and information. While I think it's justifiable to question, I am here to back up this person's stats. If any of you would like actual numbers, feel free to contact the center and we would be happy to give you the # of people that we helped, which is significantly higher than reported rape, and significantly lower than unreported rape. I am a firm believer that education is the best defense for this. End the stigma that comes with crimes of this nature, and let's help the survivors.

ds | 4:46 a.m. Jan. 30, 2008

I get a little frustrated when the mormon faith gets attacked in forums like this. It seems as though political correctness goes out the window when mormons enter the discussion. I'm not referring to the article here, I'm referring to some of these posts. To implicate the mormon faith as a proliferator of sexual abuse via church culture is unfair, not to mention inaccurate. This type of rhetoric wouldn't be acceptable in a discussion about african american culture, and it shouldn't be acceptable here. Sexual crimes happen in every society, regardless of how religious or irreligious they are. One thing is for sure, rape is not a tenet of mormon doctrine, nor any other legitimate faith. Therefore, faith is not the problem.

I understand though, that the main point of contention with the mormon faith has to do with the quote from President Kimball. I will address this issue later.

Mr. Wizard | 7:46 a.m. Jan. 30, 2008

" This is terribly sad. But I wish they would explain how it is they estimate that 90% go unreported if they're, well, unreported. "

They know how many rapes occur on average, and they exrapolate it from that. If they know that in a city the size of Provo, 400 rapes occur per year and only 43 are reported, then 43 is roughly 10% of 400.

Rich | 8:25 a.m. Jan. 30, 2008

I am highly skeptical of the officer's estimate that only 10% of rapes are reported in Utah County. If this were based on an anonymous survey of women in the county, I would be more likely to believe it. Even one rape is too much. It used to be that rape was a capital crime -- a rapist could be executed. I would be against that for only one reason: many non-rapists would be falsely convicted.

Doubtful | 10:09 a.m. Jan. 30, 2008

I took a criminal justice class in college taught by former BYU Police Chief. He told me that a disturbing number of reported "rapes" on campus are really nothing more than women feeling bad the next day that they did the deed. The former Chief told us that some report rape when they find out they're pregnant because being pregnant means they have to 'wear' their sin. They think it's better to be seen as a rape victim than a promiscuous girl. Some, he said, don't even understand what rape is.

Anonymous | 11:24 a.m. Jan. 30, 2008

Police officers have an important view of life (and crime, but it is not the only view. First LDS women are not the only women who feel guilty after being raped, women of all religions, and the non-religious, have felt that way for decades--or longer. The police officer has myopia, or maybe has been in Provo too long.

And to claim there are over 400 rapes in Provo every year is complete nonsense. Granted not all rapes get reported, but 400 rapes in Provo? Does that mean there are 4000 rapes a year in SLC? I doubt that also. Deal with what you know, officer, not what you imagine.

speaking from experience | 11:33 a.m. Jan. 30, 2008

I think that most rapes are not reported especially in Provo because of the LDS church. I know what you're thinking...here come all the bigoted "anti" remarks. But hear me out. A friend of mine was an active member in the church when she was raped/molested at the age of 13. She told her bishop of the incident, didn't go to the police because the perpetrator was an "elder" in the church and never reported him. Then she had to face the onslaught of abuse from the so-called "counselors" that came to visit her on an almost daily basis for about a month. They truly made her feel like less of human being, bombarding her with scriptures and showering in a curtain of guilt for something she had no control over. Eventually became manic depressive, lots of real counseling followed. She ultimately left the church so she could move past the incident and get on with her life, without the constant reminder of the way these people of "authority" made her feel. And now is doing quite well.

Anon | 12:21 p.m. Jan. 30, 2008

People have a few points in their lives of which they are deeply ashamed. One of these for me was my reaction to a girl I was dating when she disclosed to me that she had been raped.

My reaction involved much of what is being said negatively about the church's view and treatment of the victim. Back to the shame point I can barely talk about it anonymously to describe the details of my reaction.

I think it is a valid point that there is a spread between doctrine and understood doctrine however I do not feel like there is sufficient effort to bridge that gap.

Emphasis in absolutes such as pure vs. unpure. Member vs. non member. Returned missionary vs. non returned missionary. Temple marriage vs. non temple marriage has caused too many people too much pain. This emphasis misses the most fundamental doctrine that it is not perfect behavior which saves us but rather the atonement.

It is a problem that people can not accept the victims. There is a problem in church culture. Hopefully we can all look inside our own souls and work toward a solution.

sami kaye | 12:25 p.m. Jan. 30, 2008

The story talks about two women who said they'd rather die, (or wished they had) than be raped. I wonder how many utah rape victims truly feel that way because I have talked to several rape victims and not one of them felt that way. These are pretty inflamatory charges for the purpose of degrading the prominant religion or for selling newspapers. That is irresponsible journalism.

Shame on You | 1:29 p.m. Jan. 30, 2008

I really don't see how it is a mixed signal at all to be in favor of greater help for rape victims and greater punishment for rapists, while at the same time wanting to avoid gross exaggeration of rape statistics. Those attacking myself and others who challenge the unsupported claim of "90% of rapes unreported" seem to believe that it is only through whipping everyone up into a frenzy that we will ever take the problem seriously, and I just don't think that's correct. We can take the problem more seriously by addressing it in a rational way, finding out how bad the problem is, where the problem arises, and then going after those responsible.

As far as demonizing, grossly exaggerating the number of rape cases serves only to demonize the class of possible rapists, which from many of the comments on this thread includes every man walking the earth. Lower numbers that we can prove indicate a small number of violent criminals; higher, exaggerated numbers feed into the idea that every man out there could be one of the "many" rapists running around that we don't know about.

Dr. D | 3:38 p.m. Jan. 30, 2008

Unfortunately, there does seem to be a doctrinal undercurrent that suggests death should be preferred to losing one's virginity/chastity, but that idea is simply false. The reality is that the victim is not the person responsible for the crime at all (even though he/she may dress immodestly and not make clear his/her values up front) All accountability resides with the perpetrator of the crime not the victim, and purity is not lost in the case of rape, incest, molestation, it is stolen and the victims require no repentance. They require support and love.

Heidi | 9:46 p.m. Jan. 30, 2008

don't blame the dominant religion of Utah County for making the victims feel like they are "perverted" or "impure" if they lived through a rape. The LDS Church Young Womens' auxiliary has had generations of programs to teach young women that rape is a horrible and violent act perpetrated by evil predators. They victims did nothing wrong--did nothing to deserve it. That the victims are still innocent and pure after the attack. It is natural for rape victims to be shattered emotionally and to feel dirty.

Statistician | 10:25 p.m. Jan. 30, 2008

I don't necessarily doubt it, but how exactly did the Provo Police determine that 90 percent of rapes go unreported?

e smith | 8:26 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008

As I have read the postings here, I hear a continuing theme that LDS and other church leaders are preaching that the victims need repentence. That doctrine is incorrect, and if it exists, ought to be erradicated. But, I wonder if ther hasn't been some misunderstanding or confusion along the way. I cannot conceive of a church leader telling a victim to repent or seek forgiveness, but I can understand and have seen counsel to apply the Savior's atonement. There is a difference. Suggesting that a victim seek the healing power of Christ love is not the same as telling someone to repent, but that atonement heals much more than sin. It can save the soul from fear and pain and trauma. It can help a victim to forgive the abuser, thus freeing the victim from the damaging effect of harbored hate. I suspect what has been characterized as counsel to repent might have been counsel to apply the atonement. I hope that is true, though it is sad that clergy, as humans, sometimes fall short.

Diamond Ladi | 8:59 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008

I remember as a new convert in the early 80's hearing that it would be better for a parent to bury a child who had fought for their virtue than for that child to lose their virtue- that really upset me. At the time the conventional wisdom for women if they were being attacked or raped was to not fight back- that they would more likely be killed then. Since then the law inforcement people have done a 180 on it- Now they tell you to fight back any way you can (which is why self defense classes are important for women)
Classes for men would be good too- NO means NO etc. and how to spot other guys who may be perpetrators of Date Rape-
The thing we need to realize too- for victims, and for those who have just strayed(I'm talking virtue here) Isn't the atonement big enough to cleanse and to heal?

Rape victims are chaste | 9:25 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008

I don't believe this article is accurate. I am not saying that rapes do not go unreported. I believe that every victim should report this crime.

My faith (I am LDS) does not preach that anyone who is a victim of rape is impure or unchaste. Only a victim can really understand the range of emotions one might feel after a rape.

Law Enf | 9:29 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008

Rape - bad - very bad. That said, (and this is from a former law enforcement officer) Arnie Lemmon is not qualified to make this kind of wild assertion. I can tell you that with more experience in the same area this number is an irresponsible exaggeration.

Lindsay | 11:00 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008

This article brought me to tears, that was me when I was twelve and was raped. It is so confusing for a young girl to be told in church that you should be saving yourself for marriage and then to go through the trauma of the rape. I did try and kill myself shortly after because of the thought that I wasn't worthy or that I hurt my family. I think more LDS families need to be straight forward with their children about sex and it needs to be brought to the attention of the teachers in church that they don't know what the girls have gone through in their classes and this straight forward black and white way of teaching can cause more harm that good.

D Davis | 12:12 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008

How do you know how many unreported rapes there are, unless the unreported ones are reported???

There's no way to know how many rapes are unreported unless they're reported, in which case they're no longer "unreported"

This is a logical contradiction, a fictitious black swan argument (an unknowable - per Nicholas-Taleb).

Silly.

Reader | 3:38 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008

This thread had gotten totally out of hand with charges being made willy nilly from all sides.

To wit: The police report on "unreported rapes" but the newspaper and the police never, ever say how they come up with the statistic. Why shouldn't that be questioned.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the wild side trips a majority of you on here took. Talk about, rumor, snide remarks, dumb comments, even dumber questions too many felt needed to be posted. You didn't want answers, you wanted to feel important. You missed.

Don't ask questions if you don't have the answer and are totally unwilling to listen to the answer given by those who know. i.e. "why don't bishops read their handbooks" That was a classic. That makes the assumption that none do. Dumb.

Clear the hard drive.

Leanne | 5:58 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008

Seven years ago I to was raped while studying at BYU, by a guy who was a RM and a supposed "good priesthood holder and role model". When I reported it I was met with contempt and disbelief with sayings of he would never do that, are you sure and many other comments that just humilated me. My friends ostracized me and eventually I left ashamed of myself.

My Bishop was excellent and helped build up my self esteem over a long period of time. Now I am married to a wonderful man and have a beautiful daughter and life is great. As to the perpetrator, last I heard he was convicted of multiple sexual offences, including rape and is doing a 20 year jail term, with men that I hope are doing things to him what he did to me and many other women.

Rape does happen in the LDS community, Women are the victim not the problem...but you can get past it. I have!

ds | 9:29 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008

I mentioned earlier that I would address this issue of church doctrine supporting the loss of life over the loss of "virtue". This idea comes from lds literature, not scripture. Obviously, there is a substantial difference between the two in regards to their validity as official church doctrine. However, even if one were to view Spencer W. Kimball's statements as being doctrinal, there is no grounding in saying that this position is unchristian. Christ took many "hard-line" positions that seem to disagree with a conventional type of compassion. For example, Christ said that those who divorce for any cause other than fornication, and then remarry, are in adultery. There are other biblical examples in which those speaking on behalf of God take a very "hard-line" position. I think that it is important to examine the context in which these type of statements are often made. It is commonly believed that Christ's position on divorce was based on a celestial law, not temporal church law. In LDS doctrine there are some laws that are accepted as true, but not currently expected of it's members (i.e. the law of consecration). President Kimball's comments might be viewed in the same way.

ATX | 10:06 a.m. March 16, 2008

The reason for this sad situation of wrong overpowering feeling of loosing one's virtue by mormon rape victims can be found in their own church's teaching. In Moroni 9:9 it says-"For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue--" and in such teachings as this- The Prophet Heber J. Grant "...There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity -- realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world."

Of course the outcome of such insane teaching would be a feeling of total worthlisness by any mormon rape victim. Truly sad.

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