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90% of Provo rapes not reported to police
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HumbleDad | 8:19 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
As a advocate working with the Rape Crisis line in the 80's, I too
experienced the fear of reporting rape by the victims. Usually a family member,
acquaintance or former date is the perpetrator. However, the random acts are the
ones usually reported. The problem is that when reported the victim has already
washed-up or showered and removed the evidence making it impossible to secure
hard evidence. Contrary to all the conjecture about how women dress, it has more
to do with a victim being prone or alone, not staying aware, having or showing a
low self-esteem or confidence. This is what the rapist is looking for. Typically
the rapist has been reading pornographic stories (fantasies about sex) not just
looking at pictures.
The women of the world need to know that when men read pornography women become objects of aggression. The rapist does not even consider your feelings.
Any man who questions that the numbers are too high is not accepting reality, denying the problem or IS the problem. Any man that calls himself a Christian should take this seriously and do his part to teach and protect those women that he has stewardship over.
The women of the world need to know that when men read pornography women become objects of aggression. The rapist does not even consider your feelings.
Any man who questions that the numbers are too high is not accepting reality, denying the problem or IS the problem. Any man that calls himself a Christian should take this seriously and do his part to teach and protect those women that he has stewardship over.
dave | 8:47 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
hey true story, if a woman is TRAINED in the use of a defense tool, then they
wouldn't be fiddling with mace in sacrament meeting. Also they
wouldn't let someone take their weapon away from them. thats the value of
training, as opposed to just having a weapon. if you tell yourself that you will
just have your gun used against you, it probably will happen. Your mind is the
weapon, your gun is a tool.
Comments continue below
l | 8:50 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
That is weird that this four year old story just popped up all of a sudden. It
must have been linked to on some big blog somewhere.
Anyway, to "Pray for Provo" when you compare the point of the article to things like the world being flat and that women shouldn't have the right to vote as obvious counterexamples, you may want to keep in mind that women in Utah were given the right to vote long before it was accepted across the rest of the country. So, your counterexample doesn't exactly work.
Anyway, to "Pray for Provo" when you compare the point of the article to things like the world being flat and that women shouldn't have the right to vote as obvious counterexamples, you may want to keep in mind that women in Utah were given the right to vote long before it was accepted across the rest of the country. So, your counterexample doesn't exactly work.
l | 8:57 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Sorry, but estimated numbers like this are bunk, just like the 1 in 4 campaign,
where they estimate that 1 in 4 women are victims of sexual assault. Large
numbers are simply perpetuated by the anti-domestic violence industry, which
itself thrives by exaggerating the severity of the problem. It is getting
worse, yes. It is a terrible problem, yes. But the poster HumbleDad that
claims that any man who questions the high numbers IS the problem? Are you
serious????? That is the lamest excuse I've ever heard. One can dispute
the numbers without disagreeing that there is a major problem and that we need
to do things to fix it. Oh no, wait, I misspoke...one cannot dispute the
numbers, no matter what, even if they are completely made up, because it is not
politically correct to do so.
km | 9:27 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Recently I listened in horror to a BYU alumna of 15 years ago report her
hours-long struggle with a rapist. She said she never reported it because she
felt she would be made to feel like the victim as he was a return missionary
& priestholder. She saw her attacker at other times with BYU co-eds and
tried to warn her friends of his potential aggression but was always told they
were just "horsing around". What shocks me further: she was apparently
bruised and frightened when her roommates came home and no one noticed? The
result: almost 15 year later, she is still struggling with the trauma.
Barbara | 9:51 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Yes, I did notice that this article was printed in 2003. Let's get
something newer to respond to! We all know that the victim needs love, care, and
understanding. We all know that rapists are not normal in any sense of the
word.
What I found 'interesting' is to read of many that made this an anti-Mormon church forum. I think we need to remember that these "leaders" and/or "teachers" are just regular people who have some problems of their own. Unfortunately, most of the time we only hear of the abnomalities. I happen to be a Seminary teacher (release time)and have taught over 12 years. Never once, have I ever taught that being raped and/or commited a sexual sin warrants death. Remember the 'plan'? Choices, repentence, etc. Of my 3 sons who served missions, one came home early, and I certainly don't wish he had come home in a pine box.
Come on! There are fanatics everywhere! Let's give some kudos to the functioning, mentally healthy people who choose to uplift, support, and care about those around them.
What I found 'interesting' is to read of many that made this an anti-Mormon church forum. I think we need to remember that these "leaders" and/or "teachers" are just regular people who have some problems of their own. Unfortunately, most of the time we only hear of the abnomalities. I happen to be a Seminary teacher (release time)and have taught over 12 years. Never once, have I ever taught that being raped and/or commited a sexual sin warrants death. Remember the 'plan'? Choices, repentence, etc. Of my 3 sons who served missions, one came home early, and I certainly don't wish he had come home in a pine box.
Come on! There are fanatics everywhere! Let's give some kudos to the functioning, mentally healthy people who choose to uplift, support, and care about those around them.
Justin R | 10:13 a.m. Jan. 28, 2008
If they weren't reported then how do we know they happened? Seems odd.
Estimates are just that. You could be way off both positive and negative. Stop
publishing numbers you can't support.
Andrea | 12:07 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I recently moved to Provo and started working for an Anti-Pornography Company.
Part of my work is research, writing, investigating, etc, sex crimes connected
to pornography. And thus I stumbled upon this article. It's sickening and
scary that this happens in general, let alone happens on a campus and in a place
where, I think, most girls feel they are "safe." Because of that I
think girls let themselves become more vulnerable to assault. It's clearly
not their fault if it happens, but we should ALWAYS take precautions no matter
WHERE we are - BYU or otherwise. I felt that way, "safer in Provo" -
and now, well, I think I'll be just as cautious as when I was in London, or
Paris, or living in SLC. I don't care about "Utah County" rape
statistics - if there was 1 a year, that's enough for that one victim.
Anonymous | 12:23 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
It just goes to show you how backwards some religious
views truly are. I am not sure why this should be discussed in a headline in the newspaper. I think there are predators out there that my try to capitalize on other peopls misery.
views truly are. I am not sure why this should be discussed in a headline in the newspaper. I think there are predators out there that my try to capitalize on other peopls misery.
Rob | 12:25 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I think everyone is too hung up on the numbers, whether right or wrong. The
fact remains that in every U.S. City these things happen, and it is a terrible
shame. Parents around the world need to teach their children against sexual sin.
However, it needs to be understood that being a rape victim is not sexual sin.
This shouldn't be a debate over statistical numbers or moral values. Everyone needs to agree that rape is terrible, sexual sin is destructive, and being a victim does NOT make you impure.
This shouldn't be a debate over statistical numbers or moral values. Everyone needs to agree that rape is terrible, sexual sin is destructive, and being a victim does NOT make you impure.
School Psychologist | 1:07 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I am a lover of free speech. I am also a lover of intelligent thought. Good
changes happen when we work together to educate ourselves and are not afraid of
the truth. Let's continue to do that, and be careful not to let our desire
to quickly criticize or become defensive get in our way. Everyone in our
society approached rape victims differently 25 years ago, not just Mormons.
Current LDS Church leaders do not admonish followers of the faith to persecute
rape victims. To the contrary, they teach love, tolerance, and spiritual
healing. If a church member (or members) does otherwise, it is because they are
making a mistake, plain and simple. A loving Bishop who understands his calling
seeks to help members to report sexual crime to the proper authorities, and
further offers counseling and support to the victim on their road to
wellness.
Thousands of LDS Bishops are volunteering their time every day to do just that, and everyone of them is just a regular father, brother, husband, uncle, or cousin who has promised God that he would.
Thousands of LDS Bishops are volunteering their time every day to do just that, and everyone of them is just a regular father, brother, husband, uncle, or cousin who has promised God that he would.
Yes, wrong attitudes are taught | 1:10 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
kudos to the Des News for running less than flattering articles concerning
topics such as rape, child abuse, and suicide in Utah which have much higher
rates than the national average. One person stated that in 2004, govt
statistics put Utah at #17 for rape, noteably those numbers did not include
unreported rapes meaning Utah is probably much higher than 17 due to prevailing
attitudes towards reporting rape. Utah is #1 for suicide, males age 15 to
48.
It doesn't stun me at all to see immediate denial come out from people defensive toward protecting the image of this state. Attitudes like that are part of the problem, not the solution.
Read no further than the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W Kimball to see where these attitudes have come from in the past. He suggests that if a woman being raped feels any stimulated pleasure that she may also be impure and in need of repentance. Nonsense. The body, is susceptible to any kind of stimulus and just because horror doesn't overtake it doesn't make them impure. This isn't the only time leaders in the past have put forth attitudes that make the victims feel responsible.
It doesn't stun me at all to see immediate denial come out from people defensive toward protecting the image of this state. Attitudes like that are part of the problem, not the solution.
Read no further than the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W Kimball to see where these attitudes have come from in the past. He suggests that if a woman being raped feels any stimulated pleasure that she may also be impure and in need of repentance. Nonsense. The body, is susceptible to any kind of stimulus and just because horror doesn't overtake it doesn't make them impure. This isn't the only time leaders in the past have put forth attitudes that make the victims feel responsible.
Houston Mormon | 1:33 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
From President Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness:
"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given OR TAKEN OR STOLEN it can NEVER BE REGAINED. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. IF SHE HAS NOT COOPERATED and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a MORE FAVORABLE position. There is no condemnation where there is NO Voluntary participation. It is BETTER TO DIE in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Let's hope the next LDS President reverses this vulgar attitude towards sexual victimization of Women (and Men)!
"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given OR TAKEN OR STOLEN it can NEVER BE REGAINED. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. IF SHE HAS NOT COOPERATED and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a MORE FAVORABLE position. There is no condemnation where there is NO Voluntary participation. It is BETTER TO DIE in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Let's hope the next LDS President reverses this vulgar attitude towards sexual victimization of Women (and Men)!
Anonymous | 1:36 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Humble Dad-
Thank you for judging every man who questions the 5 year old statistics published by DN as not a christian.
Thank you for judging every man who questions the 5 year old statistics published by DN as not a christian.
anon in NV | 1:37 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I was date raped when I was 18 (12 years ago). I felt horribly guilty about it,
even though I knew it wasn't my fault. I didn't feel like I could
talk to my parents, so I went to my bishop for help. He implied that maybe I was
too scared to admit I had sex, and that I was using date rape as a cover up.
Needless to say, if my own bishop didn't believe me, I figured no one else
would. I did eventually get counseling and I confronted my attacker. Before
that, I suffered in silence and it has affected my life in so many ways. My
heart breaks for each victim of rape. Numbers/statistics mean nothing when it
was YOU who was attacked.
annoyed | 1:45 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Justin R: "Stop publishing numbers you can't support."
Congratulations; you're not the first person to glibly reject police statistics on this thread, but you get the earful you and all the others richly deserve. The explanation for the stats is given way up in the thread, but I guess you can't be bothered to read it.
The police gather data on crime not just from their own reports, but also from survey data, using the same statistical and research methods used in the social and natural sciences. These data show significantly higher rates of crime than is reported to the police. Perhaps you think many people lie in surveys; but you could say that about police reports as well. I doubt anything will satisfy your ignorant pseudo-skepticism.
People should learn something about crime statistics before they go around passing judgment on data given by the police (who know a lot more about the crimes and their victims than you do). If you want to question it seriously, go look for the raw data and the methodology yourself; don't expect a reporter to supply such lengthy info (which you probably wouldn't understand anyway) in the middle of a news article.
Congratulations; you're not the first person to glibly reject police statistics on this thread, but you get the earful you and all the others richly deserve. The explanation for the stats is given way up in the thread, but I guess you can't be bothered to read it.
The police gather data on crime not just from their own reports, but also from survey data, using the same statistical and research methods used in the social and natural sciences. These data show significantly higher rates of crime than is reported to the police. Perhaps you think many people lie in surveys; but you could say that about police reports as well. I doubt anything will satisfy your ignorant pseudo-skepticism.
People should learn something about crime statistics before they go around passing judgment on data given by the police (who know a lot more about the crimes and their victims than you do). If you want to question it seriously, go look for the raw data and the methodology yourself; don't expect a reporter to supply such lengthy info (which you probably wouldn't understand anyway) in the middle of a news article.
re: houston mormon | 1:47 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
so a past lds leader says you should fight to remain a virgin.
big deal.
big deal.
@Houston Mormon | 1:58 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Since the book "Miracle of Forgiveness" is not cannonized as
scripture, the opinions therein are those of the MAN Spencer Kimball, not the
PROPHET Spencer Kimball. I'm tired of ANY extra-curricular books being
written by ANY church leader being used as doctrine by ANYONE in the church.
They are not doctrine in the slightest, nor should they be considered as such.
In certain cases (Mormon Doctrine by McConkie), they were even asked NOT to
publish them. In the case of rape, as much as it saddens me to say it, forget
the council of even your most trusted church leaders, and strive to first and
foremost draw to God Himself for the guidance and comfort, and forget the
Deseret Book self-help section.
Brian Thomas | 2:15 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
If a crime has been committed against you notify the police as soon as possible.
Don't wait. Your recollection will be clear and valuable evidence will be
available. Don't talk to a Bishop, teacher, or school counselor about it.
It was a crime so contact the police. If you need help dealing with the
aftermath of the crime then talk to a family member, church leader, or school
counselor. Every young woman (and man) should be taught this. Likewise, if your
son was beat up at school, file a police report (assault), then contact the
principal to make him aware of it.
Difficult subject | 2:56 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Rape is a difficult subject. It is very sad that even one person suffers through
such a crime. It is also terrible that many such crimes are not reported,
because a rapist left uncaught often attacks more victims.
Questioning statistics is perfectly valid. Newspaper writers often strike me as being more lazy than book authors. Perhaps it's because they are rushed. It would have been simple for the writer to insert a small parenthesized statement (statistics from the "XYZ report ...") Too bad newspaper writers on all topics are not more diligent in documenting their sources.
Regarding the Spencer W. Kimball quote, "It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it WITHOUT A STRUGGLE."
It's already been noted this is not official church doctrine. But I think it is good council.
I am male so perhaps you will ignore this. But I would sooner fight to the death than allow myself to be raped. I would resist in every way. If the criminal still overcomes me and I am still alive, during my recovery at least I would know I did not give in. And I would certainly want the criminal prosecuted.
Questioning statistics is perfectly valid. Newspaper writers often strike me as being more lazy than book authors. Perhaps it's because they are rushed. It would have been simple for the writer to insert a small parenthesized statement (statistics from the "XYZ report ...") Too bad newspaper writers on all topics are not more diligent in documenting their sources.
Regarding the Spencer W. Kimball quote, "It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it WITHOUT A STRUGGLE."
It's already been noted this is not official church doctrine. But I think it is good council.
I am male so perhaps you will ignore this. But I would sooner fight to the death than allow myself to be raped. I would resist in every way. If the criminal still overcomes me and I am still alive, during my recovery at least I would know I did not give in. And I would certainly want the criminal prosecuted.
just the facts mam | 4:03 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
This anti-Mormon chris is out of his mind. He is trying to make the Mormons look
at fault for this. A wolf in sheeps clothing. Amazing how many anti-Mormons are
saying bad things about Mormons after a good Mormon girl was shot in happy
valley by an anti-Mormon. These Mormon haters are extremists like the KKK.
Anonymous | 4:10 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I used to have a copy of a letter that went out to all the bishops of the LDS
church from the First About (1985)Presidency instructing the bishops about rape
cases. It was in favor of the victum,,,,they were not at fault and were not to
be made to fill guilty. Why havent the bishops read this? It needs to be
reissued and in their handbooks.
Poncho | 4:26 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
It�s a good thing you guys didn't quote other
(non-LDS) religious leaders who CLEARLY put most of the blame on women. Kimball
doesn�t hold a candle to the evangelical leaders of his
day...or worse, the prevailing attitude among many middle-eastern religious
cultures today. (But that's just no fun for the LDS bashers.) If you
really read what SWK is saying...he speaks of the (unwarranted) hardship a woman
who is raped faces in society...having an OPINION to do anything to prevent that
ridicule was not out of line in the 70's. (This is why I like the
"follow the CURRENT prophet" approach) I've never had (or served
with) a bishop who resembles anything written here so I can't comment on
that. I don't care when the article came or if the stats are legit...if
more victims come forward and law enforcement is more sensitive and responsible,
it's a good thing. No woman deserves any of it�shame
on ANYONE who wants to minimize the article and topic!
G | 4:22 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Wow! To the comment the man wrote that he would fight to the death rather than
"allow" himself to be raped. That is quite a comment since women
don't allow themselves to be raped! Most women are not strong enough to
fight off their attacker. I would never want one of my daughters dead instead of
surviving a rape. No one knows how you would react in that type of situation.
What if you freeze in shock?! What if there is a knife to your neck? What if you
are bound up and can't move? You aren't giving in to a rape.
HumbleDad | 4:33 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
It has always been amazing how people unconsciously and/or deliberately skew
what is written for their own baseless arguement. I made no judgement, but you
may have felt threatened, so to clear your guilt you made something up to
justify your own behavior.
It is okay to recognize guilt and do what is right to get rid of it, so it doesn't come back to haunt you.
Every man should accept responsibility for his thoughts and actions. We all know that at some point ALL men who have violated women will be punished. Whether publicly or privately they can not hide forever. If you are indeed innocent of such things, you will have no guilt.
Do not try to read between the lines grasshopper, there are none.
It is okay to recognize guilt and do what is right to get rid of it, so it doesn't come back to haunt you.
Every man should accept responsibility for his thoughts and actions. We all know that at some point ALL men who have violated women will be punished. Whether publicly or privately they can not hide forever. If you are indeed innocent of such things, you will have no guilt.
Do not try to read between the lines grasshopper, there are none.
MissionBelle | 4:57 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I am a survivor of not only rape but early childhood molestation and have found
it amazing time and again how some people in my own religion cannot deal with
this topic.
I remember very clearly when my group young women were invited in with the adults for a lesson- on virtue and chastity. The woman gave the lesson misusing a quote by Spencer W. Kimball that he would rather young women die than have their virtue taken. That was it for me. �Great, so I�m as good as dead.� It has taken many years of therapy to get over this, as well as getting �better information� from current living sources.
I�m not surprised at the crime/report ratio. Some believe that if they survive, they�re damaged goods. No one will want them. That�s because too many MEN aren�t equipped either to deal with all the emotional turmoil that can come from these violent crimes. I�m still there, because although I�m married, I still remember how it was for me trying to date LDS guys.
There have been good articles, but not everyone who should read them does. One came in a late1997 Ensign. I wish there was a larger awakening.
I remember very clearly when my group young women were invited in with the adults for a lesson- on virtue and chastity. The woman gave the lesson misusing a quote by Spencer W. Kimball that he would rather young women die than have their virtue taken. That was it for me. �Great, so I�m as good as dead.� It has taken many years of therapy to get over this, as well as getting �better information� from current living sources.
I�m not surprised at the crime/report ratio. Some believe that if they survive, they�re damaged goods. No one will want them. That�s because too many MEN aren�t equipped either to deal with all the emotional turmoil that can come from these violent crimes. I�m still there, because although I�m married, I still remember how it was for me trying to date LDS guys.
There have been good articles, but not everyone who should read them does. One came in a late1997 Ensign. I wish there was a larger awakening.
mymy | 5:06 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
amen to Poncho.
John | 5:41 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
If only people were allowed to defend themselves, by the use of deadly weapons
such as firearms. Anyone who attempts to rape someone, deserves to die.
Of course, instead, we teach our citizens to run to the police for help. A fat lot of good that does for a victim of a crime like this.
I can promise you that if one or two rapist get their cahonies blown off, or wake up dead the next day, campus rapes will decrease dramatically.
BYU campus is a a lightning rod for such crimes, because no one is allowed to defend themselves.
Of course, instead, we teach our citizens to run to the police for help. A fat lot of good that does for a victim of a crime like this.
I can promise you that if one or two rapist get their cahonies blown off, or wake up dead the next day, campus rapes will decrease dramatically.
BYU campus is a a lightning rod for such crimes, because no one is allowed to defend themselves.
Me | 5:55 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Here is something not mentioned at all!!!!
How many women have been molested by their Doctors ?
That is also a high number !!!!!!
How many women have been molested by their Doctors ?
That is also a high number !!!!!!
Anon | 6:24 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I was raped by a classmate in a college here in Utah. I reported it to
authorities and was very confused about what happened to me. This guy was very
charismatic, telling people that no girl could say no to him and spreading
rumors to humiliate me. I was told after I gave my report that it couldn't
be determined if it was consentual or not and sent to counseling. I have never
gotten over the confusion about what happened with this person who I thought was
my friend, but I can say that if it ever happens again, I will not report it.
It was so humiliating and painful to talk about and endure the rumors and looks
from people who thought I was lying or a liability to the college. The man was
later expelled from the college as other women came forward, but it didn't
help me feel any better about my own trust in people or trust in myself. I
still feel like I should have known what he was or fought harder.
Anonymous | 6:52 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
To add to my last post. It scares me that this is so rampant out there and I
feel for those who have gone through this, it's disapointing to hear how
many have been treated, but the bottom line is that there may be people in the
church who may condemne or be misguided but the church itself does not look down
on those who have been victim of this, I know of no one who have been
disciplined for being the victim. Many have to understand that a Bishop is often
learning as well, they don't have a college for these gentlemen to go, they
will make mistakes. Not everyone called to be a bishop is going to do a great
job! To condemn the church as a whole is ridiculous. That's like saying
Disneyland is a bad place because one of there managers were rude and gave you
bad advice.
Skeptic | 7:01 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I feel like Utahns are so occupied with being "clean" that we look
away from anything unpleasant or anything that would infringe our view of
ourselves as really good. I fear we turn our heads the other way and let too
many of the vulnerable among us become victims of rape and other abuses.
Hopefully we can wake up with stories like this and be willing to take an
unflinching look at our own communities and bring these horrible secrets to the
light of day and eliminate these hurtful acts.
Awsomeron | 7:06 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Rape is a Violent Crime angainst another Human Being. In General the Victim does
nothing to cause the Rape. Even if the Victim "was doing things she/he was
not supposed to be doing. Such as Dress, Place, Making Out Gone To Far after
being told to stop etc. The Victim is not at fault. Protection of the Victim is
of the Upmost Importance. Many Young and even Middle Aged Women and Men want to
not realy embrace the World, they want to dip a toe in the World. Well sometimes
when you dip a toe there is a hand right there to grab an ankle and haul you
under. Temtation is a powerful force. Violent Rape is often an Expression of
Anger and Rejection. It is still a crime and needs to be punished to the fullest
extent of the law. Often the Victim is not the person that angered or rejected
the Rapeist. They are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If there is a
stigma for reporting Rape then some women will not report it and would rather
die then be exposed to the result of reporting the Rape.
irchr | 7:33 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
One of the greatest travesties for young BYU coeds is to think they are
"safe" while living in Provo. A few years back my daughter was
attacked in her apartment near the BYU campus. The Provo police treated all of
us like we were the guilty ones. I was livid at their attitude. It was my
daughters fault. I can't praise the women at the Provo womens center who
believed us, and helped us deal with it. No one can beat them selves in the
face and body like my daughter was beaten, but she did ward off the rape. Even
BYU didn't want it brought up, but she got on TV and told about her attack.
BYU didn't like it. but I wouldn't let it get swept under the carpet
I was proud of my daughter for fighting back and telling her story. We love BYU
but not their attitude about secrecy on this topic, but we have no love for
Provo police. What a shame to put our daughters out there just to save some
face. This is not what I had expected, but it is what we got. Shame on them,
keep your girls safe.
dcc | 9:34 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
After reading some of the comments here I'm not surprised that women/girls
don't report rape. Good ol "Arnie" says women shouldn't get
on the internet. Women shouldn't date certain men. Another comment was
the classic that women 'deserve' it due to the way they were dressed.
This is a victim blaming mentality. The message here is clear. If you're
raped it's your fault. If you don't fight it's your fault.
Arnie suggested women take classes on avoiding rape. Why don't men take classes on dealing with feelings of violence and why they are unacceptable?
Arnie suggested women take classes on avoiding rape. Why don't men take classes on dealing with feelings of violence and why they are unacceptable?
RE: Shame on you | 10:05 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
I by no means am saying it is wrong to question statistics published by a
newspaper, or any other form of media. I am saying what difference does it make
if it's 1 or 400. Only that it happens. If you feel intimidated by someone
who is being blunt and to the point, perhaps you would do well not to comment on
something you have no personal experience in.My intentions aren't to
intimidate. That is a foolish game. Perhaps it is me that you are trying to
intimidate into silence because the truth doesn't present the clear picture
that you have chosen to perceive. If you really believed what you say about rape
being an awful thing, it wouldn't matter what the numbers are. And yes, I
do speak from personal experience, as a survivor. We have chosen to ignore
public opinions such as yours and get back up and live rather than die, so we
can help others who find themselves violated as well. Shame on you for caring
more about "numbers" than an actual living breathing human being
created by God with an actual purpose here on this earth, which is not to be
another statistic.
wYo8 | 10:12 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
By going to the authorities (hospital, police, family) immediately drugs can be
given to prevent HIV, and other diseases if given within a certain time frame.
RE: l | 10:28 p.m. Jan. 28, 2008
Severity is by no means exaggerated. If anything, it's under rated due to
failure to report. Thinking like yours is what allows the perps to go free
without accountability for their actons and families left without mothers,
daughters, wives, families torn apart and devestated. Again, it shouldn't
matter the numbers, only that it happens and more needs to be done about it.
RE: Humble Dad | 12:28 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
I qoute "HumbleDad"
"Every man should accept responsibility for his thoughts and actions. We all know that at some point ALL men who have violated women will be punished. Whether publicly or privately they can not hide forever. If you are indeed innocent of such things, you will have no guilt.
Do not try to read between the lines grasshopper, there are none."
There is many things in you last 2 posts that don't add up. Women aren't the only victims. Sometimes women are the perpetrators, "Not just Every man" but every Person. I dont' claim to know the stats, but most likely women are raped more. But what about the men?
You said "ALL men who have violated women will be punished." Does that mean that if a woman violates a man or a woman, she won't be punished? Or if a man violates a man, he won't be punished? DON'T make you arguement that it is always the Men who are the problem, Or that it is ONLY woman victims.
"Every man should accept responsibility for his thoughts and actions. We all know that at some point ALL men who have violated women will be punished. Whether publicly or privately they can not hide forever. If you are indeed innocent of such things, you will have no guilt.
Do not try to read between the lines grasshopper, there are none."
There is many things in you last 2 posts that don't add up. Women aren't the only victims. Sometimes women are the perpetrators, "Not just Every man" but every Person. I dont' claim to know the stats, but most likely women are raped more. But what about the men?
You said "ALL men who have violated women will be punished." Does that mean that if a woman violates a man or a woman, she won't be punished? Or if a man violates a man, he won't be punished? DON'T make you arguement that it is always the Men who are the problem, Or that it is ONLY woman victims.
RosaMaria Hurst | 12:37 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
We need to explain out daughters and son about this danger. BYU liders have to
deal with the problem, we send our children and we think they are in a
"safe" place, the least they can do is to take the appropriate
measures to have a safe dampus environment. I know this is not an isolate
problem of BYU. Most of the university campus are having this problem, some of
them are attacking the problem fr om different points of view. As per us
parents we need to teach our children about this danger.
Boss DJ | 12:45 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
To Deliverance777:
I also agree with "Shame on You." It DOES matter whether it is 1 or 400. Would you rather live in a place where there are only a few rapes a year or a few thousand??? Where would you feel safer??? Numbers DO matter. Rape is indeed a horrible thing and there will always be rapes, so the best you can do is lower the numbers through better law enforcement, stricter punishment, etc. I realize that this is difficult to see for someone who is a victim, but it is the truth
I also agree with "Shame on You." It DOES matter whether it is 1 or 400. Would you rather live in a place where there are only a few rapes a year or a few thousand??? Where would you feel safer??? Numbers DO matter. Rape is indeed a horrible thing and there will always be rapes, so the best you can do is lower the numbers through better law enforcement, stricter punishment, etc. I realize that this is difficult to see for someone who is a victim, but it is the truth
Mom in MO | 5:26 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
I seem to remember Elder Boyd K. Packer addressing the subject of rape some
years ago in an Ensign article. He compared the act to a house being
burglarized. Who would blame the house? Sorry, I don't remember all the
details or even what year the article was published, but I think you can check
the archives. Read for yourselves what the Church doctrine is before you post.
doctrine and DOCTRINE | 7:32 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
There is a difference in what is Church Doctrine and what people think is Church
Doctrine. It is of little value to tell a rape victim many years after the fact
that their bishop, whom they had absolute trust in, was wrong about church
doctrine. I know every case is different, but there are standards that could be
set for bishops to follow when certain sins, or in this case crimes, are
reported to a bishop. It is not unreasonable to suggest that a bishop should be
trained in these standards before he assumes the mantle.
It has happened and continues to happen that some bishops are wrong in their response to rape victims. It should be standard that if a member of his congregation reports a rape, that said bishop immediately encourages the victim to get the police involved. They are the ones with the tools to both find justice and help for the victim with counseling.
It has happened and continues to happen that some bishops are wrong in their response to rape victims. It should be standard that if a member of his congregation reports a rape, that said bishop immediately encourages the victim to get the police involved. They are the ones with the tools to both find justice and help for the victim with counseling.
Shame on you | 7:39 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
Again, to Deliverance777: shame on you for trying to stifle debate. I am not
offended by your comments, for I make it a point not to be offended by those who
refuse to debate issues, and instead rely on emotional rhetoric to make their
points. It certainly does make a difference whether there is 1 rape or 400, and
to state otherwise is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have heard this week.
If there were a sum total of 1 rape in Utah County per year, the victim would
still be in need of all the mercy and help we could possibly give her (or him),
but it would not be a widespread epidemic of violent crimes, as would be the
case if there were 400. Personally, I prefer accurate facts to rampant
speculation and hyperbole, because facts are useful to solve problems.
Hyperbole is useful only to demonize. If you want to demonize, you're not
helping any victims, especially yourself.
Re: BossDj and Shame on you | 8:38 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
I am a survivor, not a victim. Those of you who are hung up on numbers yet
agreeing that the problem exists are sending mixed signals. Demonize? Isn't
that what is being done to millions of victims all over the world? Aren't
they being demonized for something happening to them that they had no control
over? Do you not understand that to victims, survivors, their families and loved
ones, numbers don't matter? Only that it happened and nothing is being done
to stop it? Feel free to debate all you want. Wasted words when nothing is being
done to bring a solution.
Bishops | 9:47 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
I am sure that every Bishop takes his calling seriously and does his best. But
we have to realize two things - 1) he is usually not an expert in crisis
counseling (ie rape), marriage therapy, financial planning, etc. Individual
Bishops may bring some outside expertise to their calling but many do not. 2) he
is not going to receive direct revelation on these topics when they are brought
to him. He will use his common sense, life experiences, what education or
professional experience he does bring, or follow the Bishop's handbook
which regularly changes over time. Therefore, members need to use their common
sense in taking important, life altering situations and decisions to the
appropriate professional rather than their neighbor who, while well meaning, is
really just that - someone in their neighborhood who has been called as the
Bishop for the moment. We are conditioned since we were youth with the talk of
"mantle" or "revelation" to the point that we put such
important and personal decisions in these men's hands.
Poncho | 11:37 a.m. Jan. 29, 2008
The passion in these posts is quite remarkable, and verifies the need to
confront the issue. But what is the issue? Its unreported violent crimes!
This is not a Utah or LDS thing. Unreported rape is universal. However,
PARENTS can have a role (I have never "blindly" sent any of my kids to
BYU as a 100% safety zone), and community leaders and law enforcement should be
OUT IN THE COMMUNITY TEACHING if these stats are even a smidgen of what they
show. If you HAVE to make it a religious issue�God will
judge these victims with complete mercy�even if the event
led them completely astray. He will properly punish the guilty. That is ONLY
religious position one can really take. You just can�t
blame a church (ANY church) that works to SAVE millions from moral decay using
�pot shot� examples of insensitivity.
I would bet anything that developing strong religious values has PREVENTED more
rapes or molestation than we�ll ever know. All religions
should be thanked for moral advocacy instead of condemned for periodic
failure.
Paperboy | 4:44 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008
It's insightful and important information, but it makes me wonder why the
Deseret Morning News is deciding to publish this article from 2003 with five
year old data? If DMN thought this was such an important topic to post to their
website (DMN controls whether old articles are made available for comment and
recently posted another article from 2003). It makes you wonder what the more
current Provo/Orem rape data looks like?
liz | 4:50 p.m. Jan. 29, 2008
The police officer in this story has another calling to which he has yet to
respond. He displayed little insight in his comments and "Rapeville
USA" suggests an inclination toward a Barney Fife mentality.
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What absolute nonsense! Are you really saying that we shouldn't question statistics that are presented to us by a newspaper, just because the subject is a highly sensitive one? Rape is an awful thing, rapists should be severely punished, and victims should be treated much better, but you should be ashamed of attempting to squelch honest inquiry into the true severity of the problem. One woman (or man) raped is too many, but it does make a difference whether the number of rapes in Utah County is 43 or 400. It is not narrow-minded arrogance, but a desire to obtain a clear picture of the true nature of the problem, and how dare you attempt to intimidate others into silence!