Hickman said that "purity" couldn't be reached in politics. And that the term "reasonable" troubled him. "What I might consider reasonable use" of campaign funds may be considered a personal use by someone else, Hickman said.

Jenkins said he has pushed for "disclosure" before in lawmakers taking lobbyists gifts and so on, only to find opposition among his colleagues. He said disclosure, which is what legislators and others are doing now, is the best way to handle it.

And if voters don't like what legislators are spending from their campaign accounts, then they can vote officeholders out, Jenkins said.

That is true, but in the 2006 legislative elections, more than 90 percent of the House members who ran, won. And in the Senate, more than 80 percent of the senators who ran, won.

Asked to justify why his bill is needed, Bell said that in South Carolina and elsewhere, the totally open laws have lead to all kinds of problems. He said in both published reports and unpublished instances in Utah that he knows personally, he is concerned about how campaign money is being spent.

"Some (officeholders/candidates) could leave office with millions of dollars" in their accounts, said Bell. In fact, some gubernatorial candidates have. Should they be able to just give the money to themselves? he asked.

"Our service is a privilege, not a right," said Bell. "We must be accountable to the people. And we should give guidance" as to what is appropriate spending of campaign accounts — not just for legislators but for other state-elected officials as well.

"We should not be using (the money) for personal use," he added. "Most items would be clear — one side or the other" on whether it is for personal use or for a political use, he said. There would only be "a few close calls."

But Hickman disagreed. He gave a fictitious example of a campaign worker who may have wanted no money for hard work on his campaign — work that may have lead to his re-election. But after that election, Hickman said, what if he decides to send that person on a fishing trip off the coast of California. Would that be personal or political use? Bell said if Hickman could justify in his own heart that expenditure, fine, since there are no penalties in his bill.

Hickman then asked what if he, Hickman, went on that fishing trip, too. Would that be personal? Yes, said Bell.

"See, I have a problem with that," said Hickman.