Multiple slayings where the victims are shot down by a crazed gunman, like Utah's Trolley Square killings in February or the massacre at Virginia Tech University on Monday, often result in an upsurge in concealed-weapons permits, Utah's leading lawmaker on the issue says.

But at least so far, even well-armed, well-trained citizens with guns have not stopped a serious attack by a gunman.

"We don't know what would have happened in Virginia" if a student or a professor had had a concealed weapon, said state Rep. Curt Oda, R-Clearfield, a longtime concealed-weapons instructor and carrier. "But we know exactly what happens when no one does — 32 dead."

The Virginia Tech campus was a gun-free zone. But that didn't stop Monday's slaughter, Oda said.

Likewise, the continued arguments over whether public colleges and universities in Utah should ban all guns makes little sense, said Oda, president of Utah's concealed-weapons instructor organization.

At Trolley Square, an off-duty policeman, who was carrying his gun, intervened and likely saved lives — exchanging gun fire with the killer until Salt Lake City police arrived and the man was shot to death.

But police never got close to the Virginia Tech killer — he shot himself before police engaged him. Several students were shot by the killer as they lined up to jump from a third-floor classroom window trying to escape. Who knows what might have happened if a student had had a legally permitted concealed weapon and the training that goes with it, Oda added.

Mass-killings aside, the number of adults applying for a Utah concealed-weapons permit has surged over the past two years, nearly doubling in number to 16,138 from September 2005 to September 2006, Department of Public Safety statistics show. That compares to just 8,147 in 2004. And many of those applying for Utah concealed weapons permits are from out-of-state.

Overall, there are 80,235 concealed-weapon permit holders sanctioned by Utah state officials today, compared to just 44,173 in 2001.

Oda said, "There was a significant jump (in the number of permit-seekers) after the Trolley shootings" — where five people were shot dead before the young gunman was killed.

But Preston Raban, spokesman for the Utah Department of Public Safety, said that Bureau of Criminal Identification officials — who by law handle Utah's concealed-weapon permits — say the bureau is so far behind in processing the permit applications that they can't say at this point if there was a significant increase following Trolley Square.