They admitted that songwriting is sometimes hard to teach. "It's an abstract thing you try to talk about in concrete terms," said Alger. "We can't teach anyone to be great, we can only teach them to be better. But maybe one little thing might open a window to the creative soul."

McGrath came to Utah "to learn something and to bring something. I'm really blown away by some of the talent you have here." He, too, recognizes the difficulty of the task. "Art is a hard thing to speak about. If you break it down and analyze it, you lose the art. There has to be some magic." Some people have a gift for it, he says. "I still believe it is God's gift. You have to have an inkling and a passion."

Workshops such as this can be "an incredible experience for writers," added Thibodeau. "It's a chance to pick the brains and learn from people in the business. I'd have loved to have something like this when I was starting out."

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It can be a crazy business, the songwriters said. You can write a song that an artist puts a "hold" on so you can't pitch it to anyone else. And it may sit on hold for years. You may have a song that is certain to be cut — until two hours before the recording session. You may have a song that you feel passionate about but can't get anyone else to care.

So, they said, songwriting is not a profession for wimps. At some point, says McGrath, "you have to decide if you are writing to be 'successful.' And that has nothing to do with big bucks. If you can play your song to a complete stranger and move him, if you can bring a bit of moisture to an eye or a laugh or a chill, that's successful.

"You'd better not make money your god. I look back and don't know how I survived to this day. But something always seems to come up. That's how you know you're supposed to be in the music business."

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