"They're just as traumatized as the parent, sometimes more," said Heather Harris, a therapist in the children's program at Sandy Counseling Center.

Salt Lake Justice Court Judge John Baxter calls lack of counseling for children "one of the primary gaps" in the current system.

"Unless there is a district court civil case (a divorce) with specific conditions in the decree for services for the children or there is an open attorney general/DCFS case in the juvenile court, the children are rarely court ordered to receive services."

Generally the juvenile court has jurisdiction over all family members when a case enters the system. It's common for children to participate in court-ordered assessment and treatment programs. Not so in justice court where the majority of domestic violence cases land.

"In my court, I have jurisdiction over one person — the perpetrator," Baxter said.

The judge said he could probably order an offender to take the victim and children to counseling, but he and the treatment community see that as problematic.

"The issue is whether we want to expose the kids and victim to further opportunities to be victimized and give the perpetrator one more reason to act out against them," he said.

A potential solution, Baxter said, would be a unified family court.

The concept is that because a family with domestic violence issues may be involved in several different courts, all cases are consolidated in one place with one judge.

"I don't have any feel for a level of support, positive or negative, for this model from any of the institutional players," he said. "But it is my understanding that these courts are developing to address some of the issues."

The shelter provides some group therapy and counseling for Patrick and Bobby. But many Utah children from violent homes don't get the psychological help they need to break the cycle of abuse.

Treatment can work, provided the children have the opportunity to get it, advocates say.

"They don't have to have their fate sealed," said Velda McDonald, director of Sandy Counseling Center and a passionate domestic violence prevention advocate. "We look at it as something that happens to you. It doesn't define who you are."

But Goldsmith said changing a child's course is difficult.

"We can break the cycle, but I think the worst news is that stopping the aggression is extremely, extremely difficult," Goldsmith said. "The truth is once it's there, it's very hard to get rid of it.

"An aggressive 5-year-old is going to be an aggressive 8-year-old," he said.