"The point to make here is that nearly half the uninsured have jobs — although we're not sure how many of the uninsured are spouses of people with jobs, we presume there are quite a few — and if we could get all workers to have coverage for themselves and their families, we would achieve our goal of at least 50 percent reduction easily," Sundwall said.

High costs are keeping employers from offering health insurance, and Utahns share a pervasive attitude that "someone else" should pay for routine and needed care, he said. "It's just simply in our psyche," Sundwall said. "I don't know how you shift back to personal responsibility for some of this."

Many of the uninsured simply don't perceive value in buying health insurance, even if they have dependents, he said, adding that an estimated 66,200 Utah children are uninsured. The Children's Health Insurance Program is helping about 30,000 Utah children, but the program could handle 12,000 more.

Sen. Bill Hickman, R-St. George, was perplexed that officials could not figure out exactly how much uninsured Utahns cost their neighbors and was frustrated about those who simply opt for no coverage.

"Let's talk about dollars here. You've got a significant portion of that 10 percent who don't give a flying fat one about not having insurance. They can afford it themselves. They have simply said, 'I would rather spend my money in another area,' " Hickman said.

"You've got a full third of those who don't care. You've got 12,000 additional capacity in CHIPs. They don't care. . . . I just don't understand this drive to make sure everybody's covered under a new government program when we don't know what it's costing us now."

Committee co-chairman Rep. Stephen Clark, R-Provo, suggested a way of rewarding people for having insurance through some sort of partnership with individuals and government.

"If they take care of themselves and they save the money, in the end they can put it in their pocket or spend it for Christmas or something," Clark said. "In that way, they get involved in the system. As it is right now, if we have an insurance company covering us, we go out and get the very best we can get. It doesn't matter. We spend all the money because it isn't our money. It's the insurance's money."

Sen. Gene Davis, D-Salt Lake City, suggested looking somewhere other than an employer-based model for providing health care to the uninsured. "We never move away to see if there's a better model out there to base our health care on," Davis said.

Sundwall said the group will speak with people throughout the state at town meetings and in other activities to get more input.

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E-mail: bwallace@desnews.com