Cooper believes it isn't a sign of softness to tell stories about popular culture in a traditional newscast.

"You can't stand there in a suit and a tie and pontificate," he said. "I don't think people buy that anymore. . . . The news is serious, but you don't have to take yourself too seriously."

Cooper's "360" hasn't made many inroads in the ratings. Neither has Olbermann's "Countdown"; both are routinely crushed by popular Fox News Channel programs with Shepard Smith and Bill O'Reilly.

Yet Olbermann is quick to parse his numbers to show he has a younger audience than most news programs.

"It does indicate that what we're doing is sufficiently fast-paced and sufficiently sarcastic to compete as a television program, which is the way that people under age 40 watch television," he said.

The peripatetic Olbermann has jumped jobs so frequently that it's hard to keep track. It's his second shot at the 6 p.m. time slot on MSNBC. He left disgusted the first time after being forced to do show after show about Monica Lewinsky.

"Countdown" is a clever format that permits editorial leeway. It ends, rather than begins, with the day's biggest story.

The device also, Olbermann believes, will prevent a repeat of his first MSNBC experience of endless concentration on one story (although that belief would be sorely tested with a Michael Jackson child molestation trial).

Finally, "Countdown" is — and this is brilliant — the boss' idea. NBC News President Neal Shapiro suggested it, Olbermann said. So if the ratings indicate it isn't working, who's to blame?

The Olbermann news philosophy is to tell people a story they don't know in some original way, giving them information and maybe a laugh.

"Without humor, a sports fan is a religious fanatic," he said. "Without humor, a newscast is a terrible, depressing, unpalatable thing, and it also makes for depressing television."

A perfect example of the Olbermann style was when he interviewed several men named David Nelson for a story on how airport security personnel were singling them out for screening. Their names were so common that they were judged suspicious. It was funny, yet a telling sign of the times.

Olbermann calls "Countdown" the best show he's ever done. He's lasted eight months so far, a notable achievement for both him and notoriously trigger-happy MSNBC. "There was a certain 'movie of the week' quality to the time slot since I left," he said.

Since Olbermann is already signed up for a key role in NBC's Olympics coverage next year, MSNBC is almost compelled to give "Countdown" time to find an audience.