"What Lincoln reminds us better than anybody else is that our founding ideal, as outlined in the Declaration of Independence — that all men are created equal — was an ideal easier to talk about and write about than put into practice. The Founders found that. They believed in equality in their hearts, but some fell quite short of that with regard to human slavery. That doesn't mean we should throw it out. We should thank the Founders for articulating the principle. Lincoln shows us that each generation needs to do a better job of making it a reality."

Holland balked mildly when asked if Lincoln was America's greatest president. "I worry our love of Lincoln overshadows (George) Washington. Washington makes a Lincoln possible" by refusing to take all power as a sort of American king.

"I do think," Holland said, "that Lincoln was even greater in terms of political genius and in the patience, the tenacity and the weight he bore. Maybe he exceeds Washington, but only so much."

The event was sponsored by America's Freedom Festival at Provo. The event will be rebroadcast next week on Monday, Wednesday and Feb. 20 at 8 a.m. and 8 p.m. on Provo's Channel 17. It also will be available at www.provo.org.

E-mail: twalch@desnews.com