When it comes to immigration, Tony Yapias and Matt Throckmorton often find themselves butting heads.

They're polar opposites on issues such as drivers' licenses for undocumented immigrants and President Bush's proposed "guest worker" program.

Yapias, director of the state Office of Hispanic Affairs, said in January that Bush's proposal to give illegal aliens the ability to achieve renewable, temporary legal status would allow them to "live and work without fear."

Meanwhile, Throckmorton, founder of Utahns for Immigration Reform and Enforcement (UFIRE), said such a program would create a "complete open ticket to come to America."

As the immigration debate appears to be rekindling on the federal and state level, it seems Yapias and Throckmorton have come to agreement on at least one point: The issue of illegal immigration is often so emotional that it's hard to hold a civilized conversation on the subject.

"The most effective way to get anything done is to sit down with key leaders on the issue and reason," said Throckmorton, who is no longer active with UFIRE. "I'm trying to remove a lot of emotion from the issue."

Yapias agreed, saying, "We just can't get too personal."

Estimates on the number of undocumented immigrants living in the United States range from 9 million to 12 million. The policy research organization Urban Institute has estimated that there are 9.8 million undocumented immigrants, based on March 2003 Current Population Survey. The Urban Institute estimates a gain of about 500,000 illegal immigrants a year.

In Utah, Yapias said the situation seems to be at a boiling point. He recently attended an emotionally charged meeting of Save America, a newly formed group dedicated to sealing the nation's borders and deporting those who reside here illegally. The group's efforts are targeted at Utah's two Republican senators, Orrin Hatch and Bob Bennett.

Save America founder Barry Hatch is gathering supporters through impassioned speeches, saying floods of immigrants are attempting to overwhelm the United States and its culture.

"America is being used as a great big joke," Hatch said. He said Chinese and Mexican immigrants took over Monterey Park, Calif., where he was at one time a teacher and mayor.

"They are coming as conquerors. They are colonizing, and they are spreading fast," he said. "I watched my community where I was born become China. I worked in a community that was white Americans . . . they were overwhelmed."

Barry Hatch and others who attended the meeting said their motives aren't racial or anti-immigrant, but pro-American. They say they're working against a tide of undocumented immigrants.