With the first big presidential debate scheduled for tomorrow night in Miami, I decided to consult some of our local debating aces to see if I could get a bead on what to look for and who might win.

I didn't have to go far. Mary Johnson is the debate coach at West High School, a stone's throw from the DMN offices in downtown Salt Lake. I waited until her fourth period class ended at noon and then we had a spirited debate about whether anyone in their right mind would talk to a reporter instead of going to lunch.

That's not true, of course. For one thing, Coach Mary, whose debate teams have won the 4-A state championship twice in the last seven years and placed second another three times, was more than happy to talk about the big debate. For another, if we had debated, I would have lost.

---

As a bonus, one of the state's top student debaters, Rob Gordon, was at Ms. Johnson's class when I arrived. Rob was a two-time state champion at West and in 2002 he placed second in the nation with his partner, Joelle Hall, while competing for the University of Utah.

Both Mary and Rob admitted that they'd be more excited about tomorrow's Bush-Kerry debate if it were a genuine debate.

"Presidential debates aren't really debates," said Rob. "They're more like dueling speeches."

"They're extended advertisements," said Mary. "It's a way to see how they (the candidates) think and how they reply to politically charged questions, and that's incredibly important. But they are not real debates."

Real debates — the kind Mary coaches and Rob competes in — involve formats that ensure point-counterpoint discussion. Participants are required to respond to their opponents. In the moderator form of presidential debates, participants are instructed NOT to engage each other in civilized argument.

"They really lower the bar," said Mary.

It hasn't always been thus. Presidential aspirants used to debate mano a mano. The most famous examples are the Abraham Lincoln-Stephen Douglas debates that were held prior to the 1860 election, when slavery was the hot topic. The Lincoln-Douglas debates used basic debating format with one participant taking the affirmative stand, the other the negative stand, interspersed by cross-examination. Lincoln's performance is credited with moving him into the White House.

"I'd love to see a Lincoln-Douglas style debate," said Rob. "It would be great if they'd take a topic, like Iraq, and use normal debating rules."

Mary would also love to see such a clash, although she isn't sure either of tomorrow night's contestants would be all that terrific in a bona fide debate. "You've got a president who doesn't speak very well but recognizes the issues," she says, "and a person on the other side who fancy-dances around everything and you don't know where he stands."